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Messing with Hop-up For Chrono Tests?

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Old December 20th, 2015, 15:55   #31
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I've been at Siege quite a bit and never encountered issues at the chrono or with hot guns.
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Old December 20th, 2015, 16:02   #32
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Its STANDARD practice to chrono everyone with hop up off, for the reason I've already stated. If hop up is turned off and the mistake is made of chronoing downward, it will cause a drop because the hop up is not locking the BB in the chamber. If you don't want your gun to get chronoed, maybe you should play at Warsoft where people shoot at 500 FPS and don't care. I've literally seen a BB get stuck in someone's vest from shooting too hot. Maybe then you'll appreciate chrono rules.

You wanna know why nobody chronographs propane GBB pistols? Because nobody runs them with extended inner barrels. Do you have any idea how much effort it takes to get a propane pistol to shoot 366 just to be legal to import? Maybe we should be chronoing all Wal Mart springers we see at games too. I guess some day somebody will modify it to shoot 400 FPS.

If he think's he's been wronged, have him post. I love hearsay though, everyone loves drama, but do you wanna know why its not admissable in court? Its unreliable.

I'm not accusing you of lying, nobody is accusing you of lying, but second hand stories are known to be unreliable and exaggerated. Damn, you had to set your hop up twice? I did too! I brought my girlfriend and I did two in about a minute. I don't understand why resetting your hop up requires you to reset your optic.
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Old December 20th, 2015, 16:17   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pestobanana View Post
Its STANDARD practice to chrono everyone with hop up off, for the reason I've already stated. If hop up is turned off and the mistake is made of chronoing downward, it will cause a drop because the hop up is not locking the BB in the chamber. If you don't want your gun to get chronoed, maybe you should play at Warsoft where people shoot at 500 FPS and don't care. I've literally seen a BB get stuck in someone's vest from shooting too hot. Maybe then you'll appreciate chrono rules.

You wanna know why nobody chronographs propane GBB pistols? Because nobody runs them with extended inner barrels. Do you have any idea how much effort it takes to get a propane pistol to shoot 366 just to be legal to import? Maybe we should be chronoing all Wal Mart springers we see at games too. I guess some day somebody will modify it to shoot 400 FPS.

If he think's he's been wronged, have him post. I love hearsay though, everyone loves drama, but do you wanna know why its not admissable in court? Its unreliable.

I'm not accusing you of lying, nobody is accusing you of lying, but second hand stories are known to be unreliable and exaggerated. Damn, you had to set your hop up twice? I did too! I brought my girlfriend and I did two in about a minute. I don't understand why resetting your hop up requires you to reset your optic.
Or why sieges engagement distances make point accuracy with the optic a requirement.
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Old December 20th, 2015, 16:20   #34
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Originally Posted by pestobanana View Post
Its STANDARD practice to chrono everyone with hop up off, for the reason I've already stated. If hop up is turned off and the mistake is made of chronoing downward, it will cause a drop because the hop up is not locking the BB in the chamber. If you don't want your gun to get chronoed, maybe you should play at Warsoft where people shoot at 500 FPS and don't care. I've literally seen a BB get stuck in someone's vest from shooting too hot. Maybe then you'll appreciate chrono rules.

You wanna know why nobody chronographs propane GBB pistols? Because nobody runs them with extended inner barrels. Do you have any idea how much effort it takes to get a propane pistol to shoot 366 just to be legal to import? Maybe we should be chronoing all Wal Mart springers we see at games too. I guess some day somebody will modify it to shoot 400 FPS.

If he think's he's been wronged, have him post. I love hearsay though, everyone loves drama, but do you wanna know why its not admissable in court? Its unreliable.

I'm not accusing you of lying, nobody is accusing you of lying, but second hand stories are known to be unreliable and exaggerated. Damn, you had to set your hop up twice? I did too! I brought my girlfriend and I did two in about a minute. I don't understand why resetting your hop up requires you to reset your optic.
I have no issue with being chrono'd, I do it whenever I get told to, my issue is with the hop up adjustments and having half an hour wasted in a lineup because QQ a ball of plastic hurt me at 380 fps. And yes, you CAN get a general idea of what to set your hop up to to shoot straight-ish in less than a minute, but when you play in bigger fields and long range engagements are common, you want to shoot as straight as possible which takes a much longer time, time which would otherwise be spent landing accurate hits. I reset my optic because even after spending about a minute setting my hop up to an acceptable level for CQB, it was completely off the dot for some reason, so I had to pull out a dime and turn the knobs a few clicks, wasting time and ammo on making sure my gun shoots the same as it was before. Twice.
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Old December 20th, 2015, 16:33   #35
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Or why sieges engagement distances make point accuracy with the optic a requirement.
Nice to have but not essential. Iron sights will do fine for indoor cqb, but if that's his preference then there's no point in arguing. This is the difference between Siege and the outdoor games you go to. It's all on you, OP.
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Old December 20th, 2015, 16:55   #36
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Originally Posted by Handsonic View Post
I have no issue with being chrono'd, I do it whenever I get told to, my issue is with the hop up adjustments and having half an hour wasted in a lineup because QQ a ball of plastic hurt me at 380 fps. And yes, you CAN get a general idea of what to set your hop up to to shoot straight-ish in less than a minute, but when you play in bigger fields and long range engagements are common, you want to shoot as straight as possible which takes a much longer time, time which would otherwise be spent landing accurate hits. I reset my optic because even after spending about a minute setting my hop up to an acceptable level for CQB, it was completely off the dot for some reason, so I had to pull out a dime and turn the knobs a few clicks, wasting time and ammo on making sure my gun shoots the same as it was before. Twice.
I'm just going to say that I care about precision. If I didn't, I probably wouldn't be using expensive PDI and Prometheus barrels, spending the time to R Hop them, and use a 2 MoA dot RS optic. If your setup is precise, you should be able to readjust hop up in under a minute. My setup had a 420mm PDI inner, it was shooting too hot. I dropped in a brand new never tested 303mm inner to lower the FPS and game it for the day. It took me 10 shots to adjust my brand new R Hop, and I did not have to adjust my sights.

If you had to change your optic setting, chances are you aren't shooting "the same as it was before". To be honest, it sounds like a problem with your setup, not a problem with your hop up being moved. If you aren't able to repeat your results, its either an issue with the equipment used or user error.
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Old December 20th, 2015, 18:05   #37
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Siege turned my hopup off yesterday and with my R-Hop it took me roughly a minute to re-zero and pew people.

Siege did not break my hopup.

I do not believe siege has ever broken anyones hopup and if they did wouldn't there be a thread about it and not just one dude complaining?

Siege > hardsonic.

Don't like it - don't play there
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Old December 20th, 2015, 19:21   #38
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You absolutely have the right to refuse, it just means that your gun or you don't get fielded there. Their house, their rules. If in fact they are adjusting the hops on players guns, that isn't too smart, but it certainly isn't malicious.

How'd the Hop get destroyed, was something other than normal function being done? Did they adjust it with a hammer or something? There's plenty of ways for things to break, but was it a rubber, the housing, from adjusting it, from shooting it, etc?

It doesn't matter, if they want to test with hops off, then they can test with hops off. Best thing to do is to turn it down before you get to the chrono, get in there early so you can go re-adjust before the game.
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Old December 21st, 2015, 00:37   #39
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Originally Posted by Handsonic View Post
I have no issue with being chrono'd, I do it whenever I get told to, my issue is with the hop up adjustments and having half an hour wasted in a lineup because QQ a ball of plastic hurt me at 380 fps. And yes, you CAN get a general idea of what to set your hop up to to shoot straight-ish in less than a minute, but when you play in bigger fields and long range engagements are common, you want to shoot as straight as possible which takes a much longer time, time which would otherwise be spent landing accurate hits. I reset my optic because even after spending about a minute setting my hop up to an acceptable level for CQB, it was completely off the dot for some reason, so I had to pull out a dime and turn the knobs a few clicks, wasting time and ammo on making sure my gun shoots the same as it was before. Twice.
Your better off listening to pesto on this one bud, he is one of the best techs/docs in Canada. He knows what he is talking about. He sells setups to other people who are more than willing to pay up to and over a grand for his setups because he is that reliable, skilled and knowledgeable. Hell I have an r-hopped inner on the way from him as we speak. And the only way I can see you needing to re-zero your optic from only a hop adjustment is if you are using a vsr pdi double arm hop unit (that is unless of course something was installed incorrectly and the employee fiddling with the hop somehow managed to seat everything properly causing a difference in the impact area) either that, or you are using a very shitty optic that won't hold a zero.
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Old December 21st, 2015, 02:06   #40
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I understand that people are getting sandy because they believe that peoples guns are shooting hot, because certain individuals BBs seem to hurt more when they are hit by them.

While you may think they are shooting hot I am aware of several people who have reticently discovered (and now love to exploit) that you can achieve a greater pain/ratio while staying under the field legal FPS limit by "joule creeping" with heavier weight BBs which is more prevalent with HPA, but also works (but to a lesser degree) with GBBs and AEGs.

Basically it would require the fields to set and test for both FPS and joule limits in order to enforce their pre determined "fair and safe" FPS and impact energy limits for all the players on their field. Fields messing with the hop ups at the chrony station sounds more like a failure to understand the problem and jumping to a feel good quick fix solution that doesn't really solve the problem or address the issue at hand. But then I guess that is par for the course for most of the liberal government policies and laws in this country, so why should an airsoft field be any different.
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Old December 21st, 2015, 02:55   #41
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Intentionally joule creeping, or joule creeping in general is breaking the rules. FPS limits with a certain weight of BB are used because it's quick and easy, but joule limits were always the goal. If a 0.20g round at 400 FPS equals 1.5j (or close), then 1.5j is the limit, period. Most fields don't have a way, or invest the time to thoroughly inspect guns on every level, but going beyond is still against the rules and doing intentionally makes one a douche-bag, that's never changed. Most players aren't even aware of their guns potential. Some GBBRs have been seen gaining 80 FPS throughout the day, while others have actually grown in FPS with heavier rounds. If you factor in just a few of these things, you could have guns out there ridiculously over the limit. Chrono on versus off, tends to not make that big of a difference, but every gun reacts differently. Some weights make FPS go up with chrono off, and others down. You as the player are responsible for your gun at all times, responsible to know what the field limits are, and responsible to stay within them. The field should do their best to enforce them, but airsoft has always been a game of trust. If I can't trust you, I don't want you on the field, and you shouldn't be.
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Old December 21st, 2015, 03:04   #42
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seige has a joule limit aswell. I had to be under it whilst using my GBBR. they gave few fucks about my fps. cared more about my joules.
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Old December 21st, 2015, 03:08   #43
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Joule creep really shouldn't be new news to anyone at this point. There are an unlimited number of ways to cheat the chrono. Swapping barrel groups, shimming the hop up, power up suppressors, cylinder swaps, quick spring swaps, adjustable spring guides, using different gases, adjusting gas pressures, adjusting NPAS units, swapping valves, swapping bolts, cranking the hop up... At the end of the day, the only real way to catch people cheating is to constantly spot check on the field while carrying a chronograph and scale. The point of a chrono reading with hop up off is to negate the most basic way for someone to cheat the chrono. I can drop my gun down from 390 to 200 FPS simply by cranking the hop up.
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Old December 21st, 2015, 03:46   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pestobanana View Post
Joule creep really shouldn't be new news to anyone at this point. There are an unlimited number of ways to cheat the chrono. Swapping barrel groups, shimming the hop up, power up suppressors, cylinder swaps, quick spring swaps, adjustable spring guides, using different gases, adjusting gas pressures, adjusting NPAS units, swapping valves, swapping bolts, cranking the hop up... At the end of the day, the only real way to catch people cheating is to constantly spot check on the field while carrying a chronograph and scale. The point of a chrono reading with hop up off is to negate the most basic way for someone to cheat the chrono. I can drop my gun down from 390 to 200 FPS simply by cranking the hop up.
Actually this is a pretty good point... who is to say that after they chrono your gun, you can't go back to your private room to do a quick spring change or something?

I would recommend placing a sticker similar to the "warranty is void if seal is broken" sticker on the body of the gun that is required to be disassembled, where if there is signs of tampering it may mean that something has been done to the inner workings of the gun that affects FPS, but because each one dismantles differently it wouldn't be feasible. I don't see hop-up adjustments having that significant of an impact on the FPS, but other things like NPAS, barrel, and spring changes do have a big affect on fps. For example, staff would slap a sticker on the line that connects the upper and lower receiver (in AR platforms for this instance). If someone were to tamper with the npas or swap barrels, they would have to "field strip" the gun, and the broken sticker would indicate that something had been tampered with.

Forgive me for going off topic, but pesto does raise a good point.

Perhaps they should start installing cameras in all locations if this is such a pervasive issue as an alternative solution.
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Old December 21st, 2015, 09:30   #45
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Actually this is a pretty good point... who is to say that after they chrono your gun, you can't go back to your private room to do a quick spring change or something?

I would recommend placing a sticker similar to the "warranty is void if seal is broken" sticker on the body of the gun that is required to be disassembled, where if there is signs of tampering it may mean that something has been done to the inner workings of the gun that affects FPS, but because each one dismantles differently it wouldn't be feasible. I don't see hop-up adjustments having that significant of an impact on the FPS, but other things like NPAS, barrel, and spring changes do have a big affect on fps. For example, staff would slap a sticker on the line that connects the upper and lower receiver (in AR platforms for this instance). If someone were to tamper with the npas or swap barrels, they would have to "field strip" the gun, and the broken sticker would indicate that something had been tampered with.

Forgive me for going off topic, but pesto does raise a good point.

Perhaps they should start installing cameras in all locations if this is such a pervasive issue as an alternative solution.
I dunno how I feel about this. Airsoft as a whole is an honour-based sport; it depends on people calling out their hits. We leave our equipment out in staging while we go and play trusting that our shit doesn't get stolen. For such an integrity-intensive base in our sport, we shouldn't be having to go quite this far. Random spot checks on the field are probably sufficient; hit checks happen and help deter cheating, so the chrony field checks should help deter modification after chrony. Maybe I'm just being naive and idealistic though...
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