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Has Honour and Respect in Airsoft Died?

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Old September 15th, 2015, 13:01   #46
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I'm telling you, having entry requirements and strict rule enforcement LIKE ANY F'ING SPORT ANYWHERE, EVER, will mostly fix these issues. That way those who wish to focus strictly on the competitive side can build something and those who want to just run around like a naked Asians can do their thing, just completely separately. But only if you all have commitment...
The tricky thing is that the old solution was exile - players and teams were banished from the "big" ops and normal field games as they gained a reputation and no one wanted them there. They would be stuck participating in scrubsoft tier events that no one on the forum heard about, nor cared to know about. It essentially grouped all the undesirables off the forums. Good games were had all around.

With the lowered barrier to entry comes a lot of people getting involved in Airsoft, and many of them choose to get involved on Facebook now. Facebook has a very short memory since searching is impossible, and newer players come in and out like a revolving door. So what has happened is a lot of those players, teams and groups that had a piss poor reputation?

They are hosting games now.

They are running large scale events attracting anywhere from 30 to 200 players. They are bringing in players and teaching them the sorts of behaviors that got them banned in the first place and normalizing it to them. You have people who I wouldn't want at any of MY events, offering training or assistance to groups of players. After those players have participated in an event and want to play some more, what do you think they are going to sign up for? Ultimately it's a recipe for disaster but there is nothing you can do about it.

ASC worked because you had no other choice. When you got involved in Airsoft you had to really be into the idea of spending 600 dollars on a gun and hundreds more on gear just to be able to play. The fear of a bad reputation drove out the poor sportsmanship and kept the quality of players high. Now you have the poor sports teaching people how to play, and players thinking certain behaviors are normal. Any history of unacceptable behavior is obfuscated to the point of invisibility. "Quality" players or groups - even signing up for ASC in general - are shit talked into oblivion from these guys because "lol fuck ASC they are a bunch of pricks that take the game too seriously" not realizing the entire reason people took up Airsoft in the first place is because they wanted a serious hobby.

It's a problem that is going to be difficult to solve and I don't think saying one specific group needs to have more commitment / ban hammers / attitude / positivity is going to cut it.
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Old September 15th, 2015, 13:02   #47
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Sense of entitlement, yes. That huge or a retard, no. Guys like that have always been around, though they are rare. I've been to games that were a complete no holds barred, where the organizers had next to zero control, and still didn't see a lot of that much stupidity. Still, did you do something about it to correct the action, did an admin? Did you offer to mentor the poor idiot, and once out of sight beat the bejesus out of him? If not, then the behaviour will continue.

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Old September 15th, 2015, 13:13   #48
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Hats off to bloodsport for making this thread! It is the perfect opportunity to have an open and honest discussion on where we think the sport is headed.

Respect and honour should come first and foremost! as critical as SAFETY!
If we all obeyed the golden rule I feel there would be a lot less conflict and issues that do arise would be dealt with like adults in a mature fashion.

We may have differing reasons for playing but the end goal should be the same for all... to have fun.

I agree with Dracheous elitism, age, colour, religion, political mumbo jumbo has nothing to do with the issues being brought up here. Blaming the new players for not knowing better or people of less means for all the problems encountered is counter productive and shifts the blame to an easy target.

I think a very small minority of people genuinely cheat on purpose. I have heard of people being shot though and through with real bullets and not knowing it till they see the wound so I can see how a little BB can be missed.

For those individuals or groups that become a persistent issue there may be need to shun these few for there poor sportsmanship.

I think the only way to move forward is for everyone make an effort to lead by example and not go blaming X,Y,Z.

lets not make this a witch burning, how about we all do our part to make the sport more fun and accessible to all.
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Old September 15th, 2015, 13:24   #49
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Wintez, I think that comes down to game control/field rules not being enforced properly.

I play in a group that I would consider "COD" players. I enjoy going out on the weekend and blasting at other people without being to serious about simulation stuff.

The team I am on ran a game a couple weeks ago. We had everything from brand new players with clearsoft guns and sweat shirts, all the way to the more hardcore milsim players, supped up guns and basic weapons. The games where fast and well organized. We had 2 admins per game on average. If you have GOOD admins involved in the games, youu will have a good game.

Every body accidentally doesn't call a hit, either because the did feel it/hear it or whatever. My example of someone not calling a hit I would not do what Hectic did. No admin was close by, I was the only person holding down that position. If I had left my position, the objective would have been over run and we would have lost.
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Old September 15th, 2015, 13:48   #50
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Wintez, I think that comes down to game control/field rules not being enforced properly.
Sometimes there are issues where control doesn't see the incident or it doesn't become reported.

I don't want to be... THAT GUY... and we're told most of the time we shouldn't be THAT GUY. Every airsoft field i've played at (which is 2 btw) has told me "it's not your job to call out other people's hits". I don't want to be THAT GUY that has to break this rule and take over control's job...

But I'm not quite sure about this rule anymore. If everyone on the forum agrees that some form of self-governance by the players which also requires commitment from the players is needed on the field, then we should be able to have MORE say about the other player's conduct, on top of simply reporting to the refs.

Players wouldn't be given the privilege to ban, but more like denounce and condemn other players. Shame is a powerful demotivator, and if you want to keep the community together, banning doesn't solve the problem because they will just play elsewhere. At least give them a chance to come back and prove themselves as responsible adults(?).
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Old September 15th, 2015, 14:52   #51
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I don't know. The 'shame game' can be used and abused by Airsoft Politicians and their lackeys to put up bad barriers. See: That Thing In Manitoba We Don't Talk About.
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Old September 15th, 2015, 15:21   #52
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Well, there is a growing problem, that's a fact. The issues we're dealing aren't new though, they've always been around, just in smaller number. If we do nothing about it, they will continue, another fact. If we don't own the field or business that we play at, are hands are mostly tied. So point fingers or don't, pretend it isn't happening or not, it is what it is. I'm sure many fields have little of these issue, I know, I used to play at some regularly. But now that I am where I am, I can tell you these issues are real, they are growing, they are causing fights, people to quit and not doing anything for the sanctity of the game, no matter how you look at it. Calling hits or not, is so not the big picture here, it's just a go to complaint. There will always be idiots intentionally not calling hits and there will always be hits not called by accident, or whatever. The issue is the total destruction of respect and honor. I'm telling you, sometimes mentoring can help, but a lot of these shitheads don't want mentoring. They want to do it their way all the time. New players are not always the issue either. Most people have some honor and respect, or they don't. Some can be taught, or have their attitude repaired, but a jackass in airsoft is usually a jackass period. Whatever form it may take in other parts of their lives is irrelevant, it's how they are when sharing the field with others. No hit calling rarely even bothers me anymore, it just gives me an opportunity to hand out some free dental work, by getting closer and sending a few insurance rounds to more sensitive parts of their bodies. If I see it blatantly, I report it blatantly. If I'm not certain it's being done, I assume it's me or my gun and I move on with my day. My old man used to say; "if you're not part of the solution, then you're part of the problem.". These players will always find a home at a business, because unless they are physically assaulting people, threatening people, or being altogether impossible, it's not likely that they'll be banned or sent home. They may get a talking to privately and that may fix their attitudes for the day.

What do you want out of airsoft? Well then, play with like minded people!
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Old September 15th, 2015, 15:29   #53
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I played my first game in 2000. At that it was played by rich people, (an AEG could easily cost you 1000$) Player where between 35 to 50 year's old. Small game small pool of players.

I was laugh at because I was wearing an green jump suit (I didn't have money for BDU at that time). I was told that the gang of vietnamese where made out of steel since they were knowned to never call their hit. Then I realised that the more geared players would take on them to do all the interesting objective, while we, the new player, were ask to watch the base. It was not a very fun day.

After a couple of game with this crowd, I realise that the guy wit the more gears/gun etc. was bullet proof. But according to him it was because he had good technique of combat. It later confirm that he was a cheater.

This same asshole decided that he would updraded his sniper to 550 FPS without telling anyone. Note that at this time upgrades were not common and chrony was rarely seen in a game. Still this guy knew the force of his rifle (he owned a chrony) and was still going for headshot. At some point someone got a BB stuck in his lip. Most of the game he would host was set in a way that he would have the tactical advantage over the other team. Spray and prey was common at that time. Of course complaning would mean your a wuss. Good thing I had to enter college and focus on my studies.

When I got back into the sport in 2006. These asshole players were all gone. The good & honest one were still there. One of the reason was that the scene had expanded a lot. The bigger pool of player ment that the asshole had lost his control over the scene. There was more team, more people who hosted game. You could now say I will play with this gang instead of this other becaus now there where more than one gang.

All that to says that sometime, you gain by expanding the scene.
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Old September 15th, 2015, 15:57   #54
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When I first played, we had strict rules. Real gun rules. Safety rules.

Players who DIDN'T follow the rules, bonus balled people, went for head shots and generally didn't call hits would be told they where no longer welcome. Maybe for a couple games, maybe for the season, maybe forever.

I will always remember "buttons". This guy came out with a poor fitting woodland camo shirt, covered in ghille, with a cheap bolt action rifle (I think it was a stock BAR10). He couldn't hit shit with his rifle, which was out ranged easily by stock AEG's. I remember him hunkering down in some rocks and getting sprayed because he wasn't calling his hits. Several players agreed that he was not calling his hits and he was never invited back.

If you have a group of players that frequent a field, all agree that a player is cheating go to the field owner/game control and voice the issues with a player, the field should eject that player. Yes witch hunts happen. But it needs to happen some times, people need to be taught that cheating is not acceptable.
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Old September 15th, 2015, 16:11   #55
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My main purpose of this post as to bring the awareness back to the front, that it is disappearing.

Many people have commented and the general feeling seems to be common, people use to be trained when they came out to play to respect the rules and each other, and if not were asked not to come back. Fields use to listen and help enforce.

The majority if they agree, need to as mentioned talk to the fields. If 20 players go to a rep/field owner and say we will not play if this 1 person continues, said 1 person will be dealt with as 20x $$$ is far greater than 1x $$$. The control is still there, just not being enforced.

I know of game hosts, who made it a common practice to find someone cheating in the first couple hours of a large game to eject for cheating. Why? Because it showed they were enforcing the rules, and everyone smartened up because they did not want to get kicked and lose their $$$ spent. Recently they have run game with zero complaints of cheating during and even after the game in feedback/AARs. If more people and fields followed this our respect in this sport would be a lot stronger.

Someone mentioned Seige field, I actually was talking to one of the field staff yesterday regarding another post on facebook. They are looking to enforce their rules harder, if they do then props to them for doing so as it shows commitment, and would be a place I would attend if they were local (although I intend to check out their field on my next trip to the GTA anyways). He mentioned they have taken incident reports from serious complaints in the past and will continue to do so, this keeps a record of who was involved and what happened, which will allow them to keep track of who is a consistent problem so they will be able to enforce bans as needed.

Now to only get other businesses/fields to do the same. But before we see these fields/businesses do so, it requires the players to enforce themselves and the base rules. And as a majority speak up the same day while on the field when the issues are happening so the fields are able to act instead of needing to react.
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Old September 15th, 2015, 16:28   #56
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I'm going to do a bit more cane shaking here,

We're all more or less in agreement that bad players exist in all brackets of income when it comes to any activity, having money or lack of does not necessarily contribute to a given level of asshattery.

Here's an issue though, as a field operator, yes you want to keep games clean and players in line. You obviously don't want to sit on your hands and do nothing about cheaters, you'll get to be known as "THAT field" that hosts all the cheaters.

Flipside of the coin is that depending on how many guys there are with bad attitudes, are they having a bad day? are there other factors? are they really 24/7 assholes? How long would a ban need to be in place to teach someone a lesson? At what point do you step in and remove a paying customer from the field, and how many times can you do that before it affects the bottom line of your business? It's not so clear cut when you have bills to pay. Granted one or two bad apples don't mean the difference between sinking or swimming, but guys got crews they run with, and if one guy don't get to go, the entire crew won't go. So now you've lost maybe 10 good guys because 1 is an ass.


Finally, I have a real issue with the 'show me respect before I show you respect' line. That's such a flagrant hypocritical thing to say right after you accuse others of being self entiteld. What entitles YOU to respect? I'm not taking a jab at the guy who said it, but I have a serious beef with the saying. You get 2 of those "YOU first" attitudes opposing each other and you're going to get cold shoulder both ways. It's like a "you should apologize first" argument.

Lead by example, be a good guy, treat others as a good guy, get treated like a good guy. Expect to be treated like a good guy while being on edge to everyone else waiting to see if they're good guys or not, be seen as a jerk.
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Old September 15th, 2015, 18:25   #57
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^That's a good post.

Can people also please explain to me why head shots are so reviled? I'm not baiting anyone here, I'd honestly like to hear why a double tap to the head is considered bannable.
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Old September 15th, 2015, 18:51   #58
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Commitment to what exactly? Growing the sport? Enforcement of the rules? Making money? Investing in proper gear? Mentoring the next generation? Playing as a team? Maybe following the goddam rules? Of course everyone needs commitment, but saying everyone needs commitment is like saying everyone needs a pulse to play. Of course they do. Basically your post says; "if everyone did what they were supposed to, they could all just get their blue ribbon and go home.".

Also, apprently airsoft to you is naked Asians running through the forest getting shot at, because it may have happened in Vietnam? Or am I reading that incorrectly?

As someone who has played airsoft avidly for a decade, I can tell you that all of these things mentioned in this thread have always existed. It's just now that they are far more rampant. I know many experienced, long time players have just straight up quit in the last two years, vowing never to return. I guess if you're gonna complain you should do something about it. But like any sport, there comes a time when leagues and the like are formed to take it further and cut out the BS. This would be an incredible undertaking of course.

I'm telling you, having entry requirements and strict rule enforcement LIKE ANY F'ING SPORT ANYWHERE, EVER, will mostly fix these issues. That way those who wish to focus strictly on the competitive side can build something and those who want to just run around like a naked Asians can do their thing, just completely separately. But only if you all have commitment...


Well, you seem rather irritated as though there was some personal bias toward your own remarks. I'm sure you're aware that it's already been made apparent that getting into public debates or personal attacks is not condoned for this thread.

However; commitment refers to commitment to the game full stop.


When I started this game a plastic TM M4 would ring you up to $700 new pending your point of import. All that got you was the gun and a mag; that was it. Typically you saw very shitty quality knock off tac vests for around $100 a piece and a solid knock off Phantom CIRAS chest rig cost you upwards of $300, mags were $25-50/pc pending what rifle/pistol you had.

The point was that back in the day you would have to drop a serious investment in kit and gear to play the game. If you didn't have a $1000 kicking around it would take you time to save up; and you were left with borrowing or renting kit from other people to play. This built commitment.

Using the first link that appeared at the top right of this page ((for me was Tactical-Center.com and I know nothing about these people)) you can get a G&G AR for under $200, a CIRS vest for $125, and mags for $12-15/pc. Really the only thing I've not noticed a massive reduction in cost are GBB pistol mags.

For less than $500 today you can have a very solid array of kit and gear to play this game. And that's not even shopping the classifieds. When back in the day you NEEDED the ASC classifieds because importation dried up and drove costs through the roof. I remember paying $1300 for a CA M249. Now that same 249 you get new for less than the cost of the knock off from A&K was back then.


I doubt many new players are making much more than $2000/month; some are yes. But you must realize that when the sport to start could cost you more than one months income, you had to make some decisions on if this was for you or not. Many players came and went because the cost was simply too high. I remember comparing the annual costs of just playing, not gun and kit, to my real steel hobby and was astounded by the costs. Back then if I went to one good game a month, it was anywhere from $25-50 walk on pending the size of the game, $20 in ammo if I didn't use the 249, $20 in gas, and then you always brought snacks and food for the day as well as stopped somewhere after to AAR and laugh about that days fun in the bush. That equaled anywhere from 1050-1400/year with out factoring the REALLY big games that involved driving several hours and camping over night(s) for the weekend. In reloading costs; that's 4000-6000/9mm rounds I could had reloaded.


So now, if you've thrown a months income at this sport just too play, another half months income to play just one game a month for a year; are you really going to want to risk loosing that investment because you didn't want to call your hit? Simply speaking, the costs of this game at one time were a major deterrent from bad sportsmanship. Did it alone solve all the problems? No it did not. I remember that I got a "life time ban" from ALL fields in Ottawa because I argued with a particular member about the volume of hi-cap magazines. Said ban held no merit as he was not even a range owner; and it was his first game as host. And yes, this was because the mag limit was one high cap or however many "real-cap" mags you could carry. Pointed out that AK hi-caps got 600-700rnds in them while AR hi caps got 300; so why the advantage to said group that bought AK's at the time? I got banned from "entering Quebec" because I requested a translation of a field waiver. Now I live in Quebec so again; people say and do silly things.



Now the game has changed, where for less than a 2 week pay you can get enough kit to rock with the "elite" back in the day. And if you get ejected so what? You can sell the thing off, trade it away for something else, or like countless other things you spent stupidly on just let it collect dust in the closet. And yes I'm aware that there are probably people still struggling to afford this game today; and I hold nothing against them, because I suspect they're going to want to keep playing and will tend to follow the rules and get involved with groups so that they can get to more games and get more out of the little bit of money they could afford towards having a good time.


So now, the suggestion is this; there is more onus on the rest of the members to keep new people in the group; to make playing by the rules a better interest to them. Simply saying "we will BAN you!" does nothing if there is nothing to loose. Expecting the field owner to be responsible for the actions of all on the field is equally disastrous. Fields require rules and safety precautions to keep the owner from being liable to injuries on his premise. This was one reason why you saw even enforcement of rules across the board, with ROE's, FPS limits, and General Harassment rules. You chip your tooth and limits to FPS were inforced, ROE distances were followed, and game play stopped to get you proper treatment; then the owner is not likely to be found liable for you getting your tooth chipped. But if a 700fps gun is let on a field with a maximum engagement range of say 50m; and the owner says "GO FOR IT!" Well, he ought to had known that was a bad idea and would likely be liable. But if he was committed to safety and to the best his abilities ensured that people were using safe AEG/GBB and ROE's then he'd likely be safe. But that court case to determine this could be devastating in costs.

Again, while I digress, that word commitment keeps coming up.


The suggestion is when you have new people you pull em in, and keep em in the game. They see putting in time and effort to stay involved and keep playing as a benefit to the money and time they have already invested to keep going. And are likely to follow rules as a result.
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Old September 15th, 2015, 18:55   #59
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^That's a good post.

Can people also please explain to me why head shots are so reviled? I'm not baiting anyone here, I'd honestly like to hear why a double tap to the head is considered bannable.

Sorry double posting here, can not edit previous post.

Generally back in the day there were few and far between on chronographs to inspect the FPS of all AEG's at fields. Eventually they became far more wide spread; but due to the fact you couldn't always guarantee the speeds of the projectiles ((and not all AEG's were created the same)). Head shots were to be avoided as to not cause severe damage ((eyes and teeth the big ones)). Other things like semi-only or pistols for close quarter combat was enforced for the same reasons. Some of these rules have just continued on.
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Old September 15th, 2015, 19:10   #60
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Airsoft has gone the same way as most exchanges between individuals.

impersonal, and anonymous.

If you don't know who you are shooting, it is easy to see them only as a target, and not a person.

You see this at events where people do not engage at a personal level with anyone who is not in their team or unit or group.

For many people that i see at events, the perception is that everyone else is there for their enjoyment, the same as computer generated adversaries in a video game.

it has become "us VS them" people no longer play together, they play Against each other. Many events are designed with an overarching theme of competition as the principle driver of the event. Who is "the best" sadly rarely brings out the best in people.

This is exactly why the events I host do not have "winners" and Losers, there is no score to tally. There are only personal challenges to achieve objectives that usually have nothing to do with shooting anyone. The event is designed to challenge the individual and the group they are part of the achieve a goal, not a body count.


Let me just set something straight though. I do not advocate shooting people in the head. The most basic rule is do unto others as you would have done to you.

this is stated as "don't take a shot you would not want to receive" this has always and will always be my personal position and the position that I advocate strongly.

This is the foundation of our society.. and it is significantly degraded in my lifetime. Now it seems the new rule is "get away with as much as you can"

That said , your own personal responsibility dictates that the individual alone is responsible for their safety. It is a fallacy proven time and time again that anyone can rely on others to keep you safe.

Not everyone adheres to YOUR principles .. undisciplined, inexperienced , and downright malicious people exist and you will encounter them on the field. It is your responsibility to do what you need to to keep yourself safe.

Getting shot is part of this activity. you don't get to control who shoots you and where or how much if you are on the field you are agreeing to the risk.
Do what you need to to manage it knowing that you will encounter people who don't do things the way you would, or should.

Honour and Respect is not lost .. only diminished.. and late blooming.
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