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Has Honour and Respect in Airsoft Died?

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Old September 14th, 2015, 15:47   #16
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Just to present a flip side, I've seen people try to call out other people for not callin there hits. The issue is that either their own gun is not shooting bb's, bb's are hitting obstacles in the way, or their gun just doesn't have the range they think it does. So calling people out in the middle of the field sometimes is not the best idea. Everyone is running on adrenaline and getting up in someones face accusing them of cheating will not get the best results.
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Old September 14th, 2015, 15:58   #17
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I won't be surprised to read on hear someday where somebody over shot the wrong guys and got his face smashed in for his troubles.
Already happened.
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Old September 14th, 2015, 16:47   #18
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I removed a couple posts from this thread as they went off topic into the name/shame category which this thread is not for (like I said above I'll work on a new subforum/section with rules/guidelines for that later).

Please keep this topic about what it is for and not a place to bitch about 1 specific person.

This thread is intended to talk about why we are having these issues these days, not who the issues are about specifically.
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http://airsoftcanada.com/showthread.php?t=174161 - Honour & Respect your fellow players! #Airsofthonourandrespect
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Old September 14th, 2015, 16:51   #19
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Just to present a flip side, I've seen people try to call out other people for not callin there hits. The issue is that either their own gun is not shooting bb's, bb's are hitting obstacles in the way, or their gun just doesn't have the range they think it does. So calling people out in the middle of the field sometimes is not the best idea. Everyone is running on adrenaline and getting up in someones face accusing them of cheating will not get the best results.
once again this is not a flip side. This goes back to the respect part.

Respect that it is possible you may not have hit, or the other person may not have felt/heard the hit. Rather than having a fit over it, take the high road approach them during a break and say hey I was pretty certain I hit you at this point of the game, not sure if you just did not notice/hear. It happens I've seen it when I mentioned it to the person they were so focused on something else they didn't even feel it, check his gear and found a BB lodged in the spot I hit between pouches. Apologized and said they would do better at listening for that to not happen again.
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Old September 14th, 2015, 19:21   #20
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Personally I always thought the crash in prices would have a negative effect on the game.


The reason has always been for me that when it becomes too easy to start playing that it removed a massive community essential. Back in the day of $500-700 TM's if you wanted to play you'd have to make a large commitment. If you were new and wanted to try the game you'd meet some locals and get an invite out to get a little taste; either by renting or borrowing an AEG.

As the prices came down, the number of people limited by coin dropped significantly. Now you will encounter completely new people whom no one knows but they have a complete kit/setup that would have rivaled those we labeled "elitest" back in the day.



But that's just like... my opinion man.
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Old September 14th, 2015, 19:25   #21
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While I agree with a lot of the ideas and sentiment being expressed in here (and I have only been playing for 2 years), there are a few things that I respectfully disagree with. And I will draw some comparisons to a completely different sport/ activity.

1) Cost of equipment = maturity level / respectfulness of players.

2) Younger players = less respectful players.

The broader issue is consumerism, mass appeal, and accessibility. Just from a sheer numbers point of view, the more people on a field, the more likely the chance of having one person who is being a bit of a dick. And those people stand out.

- Think of your commute to work this morning. How many cars did you pass / see / encounter? How many of them were Audi-driving a-holes (just kidding Rossco... BMWs only). If you live in a rural area, and see maybe 100 cars on your 10 km commute, the likelihood of seeing a lot of idiots is low. If you take the QEW into Toronto, chances are you will see a lot of idiots.

As Airsoft expands in popularity, and the number of practitioners climb, there is a far greater likelihood of meeting one of these jerks at some point. And they stick out in your mind.

1) My completely anecdotal and limited experience indicates that a lot of new players are engineers, investment bankers, mechanics, labourers etc. Or in other words, people who have some money. They may not see the benefit right away of buying a Polarstar, but they probably are able to. Airsoft is a pretty expensive hobby even on the cheap side.

2) Of the younger players that I have seen come into the game (again, I'm limited in my view / scope), they have been very respectful. Of course, they have come in under the tutelage of some more experienced players. I have seen a lot of "older" players being complete jerks, running around like only their opinion matters, and nobody else is right about anything. Granted, I don't play indoor games at some of the run and gun arenas.

My view on this is comparable to rock climbing. When I started in 1985, there were no gyms. There were few accessible crags, and Sport Climbing was something that was done in France, Spain, or Smith Rocks. Within a few years, there was a large influx of new climbers. Gyms opened up and propagated. Climbing gear became much more accessible, and cheaper options appeared. There was suddenly "access" problems at crags due to overpopulation (these were the new climbers, mostly mid-aged professionals) causing lots of problems because they "weren't respectful". Unfortunately, it was unavoidable. Increased numbers meant that there was an increased chance of accidents / trail erosion/ litter/ fist-fights in the parking lot.

But I bet that the climbers who started in the 1970s saw me and my generation as the cancer that was killing the sport and ruining it for everyone.

Sorry for the wall of text.
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Old September 14th, 2015, 19:38   #22
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Accountability is everything. Players have the right to be jerks, cheaters and disrespectful jackasses, but everyone else holding them accountable is the key. It's true that some older players don't like to mentor, alas this is an attitude that can be found everywhere, in every sport, work environment, etc.

A common attitude that has been mentioned is; "if I boot and ban I lose repeat business.". Best fields and games I ever attended were run by avid players and not business minded individuals. However, anytime you increase volune you have more issues. Bigger cities have exponentially more crime than smaller centres. And now when I go hit the field, there's eighty nameless players versus struggling to get twenty or thirty members together for games.

Any team who has shifty politics, such as mandatory head shots will me found out and should be publicly dragged through the mud, no question. Players who can't behave do not return, period. The bigger the fire, the more people will see it. Meaning; if you hang people publicly for being fuckfaces instead of slapping their wrists in a back room, and example will be set for others, which is "DON'T BE A FUCKFACE OR ELSE!".

If game hosts are lax, I don't return to their games. Although age is not a guarantee of maturity it is a guarantee of being held accountable. Intentionally shooting someone in the head just for the sake of shooting them in the head is wrong, but shooting someone in the head because that's all you have or thats all they'll give you is normal. Same goes for spraying way too many rounds, shooting someone too close, blind firing, or whatever. It's how we deal with it that'll set the future.

There are still plenty of players out there who play adequately. Wanna tighten things up? Then cut the fat! Start by banning lazy crap like drum mags and multiple high caps, or any really, stop taking peoples feelings and personal budgets into account when running games also. Why not set the bar at reasonable? Don't cater to lazy, whiny and cheap players. Hold all players accountable for their guns. Designate max ROFs, FPS and Joule regulations that encompass GBBR temperature swings and Polar Star Joule creep, etc. Do away with double standards and ridiculous FPS. Don't ever enable people based on their weaknesses or laziness. Start there and then move forward.

Step two, have clear and concise rules that push for competitive, active and progressive gameplay, but that don't cater to idiots, low budgets, or selfish and self entitled jerks. Don't like the rules? Then don't play! Your gun doesn't operate properly or behave in all conditions and with all BB weights? Then don't use it! Next, have zero tolerance on temper explosions and violence or revenge. 100% banned at all times, everywhere, everywhere, fucking everywhere. Have admins and people actually playing, keeping an eye on their own players.

There's lots we can do.
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Old September 14th, 2015, 20:14   #23
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I absolutely can't agree that the higher things cost, the harder it is for idiots to get involved.

There are a lot of stupid people out there with more money than sense.

It doesn't make a difference whether your gun is worth 150$ now vs 900$ now. An asshole with a 900$ is as big an asshole with a 150$ gun.

I've met a lot of down to earth people that have the bare minimum and I've encountered total geared up asshats. I don't necessarily think price point is a deterrent for people of lesser integrity.
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Old September 14th, 2015, 20:32   #24
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I absolutely can't agree that the higher things cost, the harder it is for idiots to get involved.

There are a lot of stupid people out there with more money than sense.

It doesn't make a difference whether your gun is worth 150$ now vs 900$ now. An asshole with a 900$ is as big an asshole with a 150$ gun.

I've met a lot of down to earth people that have the bare minimum and I've encountered total geared up asshats. I don't necessarily think price point is a deterrent for people of lesser integrity.
No, an idiot is an idiot, but volume of players will make difference. I think what they are saying is how lower cost has had an effect on volume or flood of players. Back when they needed to be recruited it was more personal and each player got more investment from others. There are a group of players whom don't want to, or can't, spend 'X' amount, so they whine instead of bucking up. That being said, although lower cost guns can be made adequate or in cases quite good with enough upgrades and maintenance, I still see a large performance difference between them and higher end guns.
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Old September 14th, 2015, 21:02   #25
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I don't think price of gear is affecting players respect/honour/maturity. Honestly more available guns at an affordable price just increases accessibility. I have seen players with incredibly expensive load outs cheat and be dishonest/dangerous.

I was at a game recently. I had been shot, my position was over run and I was trying to leave the area. I noticed several players converging and instead of getting shot, I put my guns down put my hands up and clearly said I was hit and dead. A player came around the corner and shot me. I told him I was dead, so his response was to shoot me again to "confirm" I was dead. I could have freaked on him, but I didn't. But Karma is a bitch, as he decided to pop out of a window about 10 minutes later and got shot in the face (not intentional on my part).


As for cheating I have seen players not call hits several times. I have heard shots hit enemy players. Yes I get sometimes it happens and I just move on. I never go for intentional head shots (if the top of you head is the only thing visible poking out of cover then yeah you will probably get shot there).


I think it is volumes of players. More people are getting into the sport. The "old guard" needs to educate new players on the etiquette of playing. With new fields opening constantly, players hosting games need to be sure trouble players and banned/punished. Last game my team hosted, there was no cheating, hit checks where common and cheaters where warned before a single shot was fired. We enforced rules fairly throughout the game.
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Old September 14th, 2015, 21:36   #26
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I don't think price of gear is affecting players respect/honour/maturity. Honestly more available guns at an affordable price just increases accessibility. I have seen players with incredibly expensive load outs cheat and be dishonest/dangerous.
I think there's a lot of miscommunication. Let's get one thing clear here.

I personally believe that lower prices result in more people having access to the sport, this much is true. But with all due respect, I get the feeling that people have the impression (including myself) that people with cheap gear also have cheap personalities which may/not be true, e.g. bad sportsmanship. It's also the first thing that comes to mind is UA's discount Wednesday (or Thursday? I can't remember). The anecdote goes something like "I never play at UA's on Wednesday. There are too many people who don't call their hits/cheat", because they believe in the stereotypes that people who play at half-off entry are dishonest and cheap in both ways.

My theory is that the sport has a problem with honesty because of a mentality that comes with airsoft, among other sports. People who are jerks are attracted to the sport because they have a superiority complex and need something to prove themselves. Young and old alike both use the excuse of being a "Weekend warrior" to brandish and show off their guns, and when someone bests them in skill/tactical superiority, they get salty AF, or carried away with revenge to redeem themselves, hence shooting someone 10 times in the face... or not call hits.

Meanwhile, the remaining weekend warriors who just want to have a good time and play honestly suffer the brunt of it. They have nothing they need to prove to anyone else. Their mentality is that "i should git gud", or at least try to stop dying.

Side note: I started airsoft in 2011, so I'm definitely still pretty new to the scene. I have my rages and outbursts (GET OUT OF THE F-ING WAY! D:<) during games, and I've lost my cool before. We're only human, so I don't think that a lifetime ban from the game is appropriate since it kills business (with exceptions) but maybe a ban for the day, and maybe a refund if they were polite and remorseful.
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Old September 14th, 2015, 22:34   #27
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Great discussion, and I think it;s moving along well.
I'd just like to point out though, for everything we've covered, we've all been the "Good Guy" and the "Bad Guy" in this game.
Anyone who claims to be without sin is a fucking liar.

So, in the spirit of love of the game, what are some steps that we all can take to help improve this situation?
What sort of structures can we create to help individuals create the best possible players within themselves, and then go on to share with the community?
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Old September 14th, 2015, 22:45   #28
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Yeah kind of. What I will agree with, and airsoft has ALWAYS suffered from it, is as you said, get rolled by superiority and get all shitty about it. These are the people who immediately start slinging crap and complaining about others. Airsoft is slowly filling with people who buy actual tactical gear, have the time and know how on how to tune their guns, have bigger budgets, will utilize gear like night vision, attend tactical and team building exercises and use it all to its full force against opposition, whatever or whomever they may be. Honestly, I say; "all the power to you". However, I don't like to hear complaints about it. Sometimes these people are the ones not calling their hits, but more often than not, no.

I have said this a million times and I'll say it again; "airsoft is different things to different people". You may think that using airsoft guns to shoot people, versus using airsoft guns to shoot people sounds very similar, but, it isn't. Cheaters and dishonorable jerks aside, certain groups look like they should mix, but they don't. The only real fix unfortunately is to separate them out, but it's hard to do that when you all have to play together at the local business, who could usually care less to make these distinctions for profits sake. I believe very strongly that this is the key problem that airsoft has always had. The COD group, the reinacting group, the competitive military group, the role play group, and on, and on, and on, do not share the same large picture or mentality. Therefore they don't always jive on the field. The COD/I pretend I'm in the military group, tend to do things like use high caps or try to look exactly like a soldier from their favorite movie, weather their gear and equipment is effective and sportsmanlike or not is not their main goal, it's looking and feeling cool. But what the average person sees is a guy wearing modernish gear, shooting his friends. Another group is the competitive/modern tactical group. They prefer to use equipment that works over what they think is cool, work tactical as a team and will despise things like high caps, people without radios and guys wearing standout camp because they thought it looked cool. What do people see? a guy wearing modernish gear, shooting his friends. So it looks the same, but it rarely mixes well.

I don't think that honor and respect are gone, I just think it's too much for your average walk into the sport player who is just there to fill his own self interests. He doesn't like that he can't afford better gear, he doesn't like losing, he doesn't like not being able to have things his way and he can't handle getting butt hurt and losing at something.

These things can be a symptom of lack of mentor ship or admining, but they always existed. The rampant nature of it now is the uncontrolled growth. Although the money wasn't the main issue, but the investment was. It used to take time, money, friendship and hardworking to get into airsoft, now it doesn't. So what we've got is a bunch of Protestants, Catholics, Muslims and Jewish people getting dropped into an area and someone saying; "build a community and get along. Good luck!". Meanwhile the guys that have been there the whole time are now swimming in crap thinking; "we spent years building this into something awesome and it got wiped out quickly by the flood.", so why should we fix it? Then there's a spatter of reasonable people in all groups trying to hold it together with duct tape and saying; "we're all human and religious, we have so much in common. Why aren't we getting along?".

Want it fixed? Purchase your own field and only invite like minded, good attitude teams and players. Also, for god sakes, put your tempers down, you probably didn't hit that player anyways.
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Old September 14th, 2015, 23:00   #29
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I have to agree that to some extent the sport has gone the way of paintball. That being said there are a few things that are problems causing this. First and foremost folks cannot ID their own teammates never mind who the guy not calling hits is. If a player cannot tell me "hey its this player this is his name he did not call his hit" and then I need to hear it more than once from more than one person (as we all know there are plenty of times when hits just plain aren't felt or audible) before I can say hey you, you are no longer welcome here for whatever duration seemes fit.
The tight little groups like the hill and some other private/semi private places don't have this issue. Places that are full of regular players tend to have little to no issue. Some groups are known as cheaters but just because 4 or 5 out of 20 or 30 are being shady one can't just ban the whole group (from a business standpoint at least) just to weed out the few. The players need to I'd the cheaters and the rest falls into place.
I have put into place a small rule set. It is,
If you think someone is not calling their hit you
1 call yourself out (not consuming a respawn)
2 safely approach the player and ask them their name (no player shall withold their name if they do take a good look and see game controll right away)
3 see game controll if a resolution isn't met between gentleman (most honest players will say something along the lines of "yeah I'm Hectic, sorry did you hit me? I'll call myself out sorry man I didn't feel/hear it" and that would be the end of it)
With those rules still folks complain from time to time but no one knows who's cheating lol
My advice (well my 2 pennies i guess lol)
talk to host/fields about private/semi private games so you can controll who you play with if cheating is a problem in you area. If it's a regular problem at a certain venue or with a certain group either talk to the host, field owner or team command (i would suggest such contact be made through a host who can mediate) and talk about rules (like mine as an example) or talk about problem teammates and such.

To add to this I recently read an AAR for a milsim in my area and I a post a guy posted in reply to another post that he had a convo with his guys about not cheating and yada yada...
All I could wonder is why would one have to even have this convo and then asked myself the question Bloodsport asked.
We (those who play "oldschool") should band together and oust the cheaters. We controll the money (we must be the majority) we don't show up to game without strict no cheating rules and I favoritism then it'll just be all the cheaters (minority? Hopefully) and we all just play at the fields we know are "clean"
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Old September 14th, 2015, 23:03   #30
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^^^^^this, I concur with^^^^ . my own thoughts to follow tomorrow, sleep now
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