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Old October 20th, 2005, 11:24   #1
Tarkus
 
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A note about feedback

Following up on a comment from FF, and because I think there is a discussion to be had about this (or maybe there has been hundreds already ?), I'm opening this topic to gather ideas about the feedback system as it is and see if it could not be enhanced (NOT to point fingers at anyone):

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freedom Fighter
Well, you guys just keep sucking it up and not giving negative feedback, then people on here can screw everyone around for an eternity. You guys are so darn nice.
True. It seems feedback as it is unfortunately does not serve it's purpose very well. But why ? I'm probably guilty of being too nice once or twice myself. The fact is that there is a grey zone about excuses where people can tell you anything and depending on whether or not your a new member, you tend to be softer, especially with long established members. And some people are taking full advantage of that.

For some reasons (wrongfully it seems, and I'm guessing I'm far from being alone in this), I see negative feedback as an extreme mesure that can have direct bearing on members, and since one rarely knows if someone is really going through [trully] rough times, one may very well hestitate and wait a lot longer than one would in person.

That being said, after about twenty deals or so, I'm seeing a pattern... generally, as soon as someone is giving you an excuse, you know you're in for some back and forth insisting PMs and time wasting investigations. I must clarify that to me, an excuse is from someone coming up with a reason for NOT delivering (paying or shipping, doesn't matter). I am perfectly happy with someone who tells me "I'll be out of town next week, I'll ship your item when I'm back". This is not an excuse, it is the circumstances of a deal. When someone is taking the time to tell me IN ADVANCE that there will be problems, or is offering some compensation, in short who is clearly demonstrating good will in resolving the matter, that person will NEVER get the bad word from me. But as it is now, people don't even bother replying to questions.

I'm saying all this to question whether or not the system could be enhanced somewhat to make up for this foggy greyish zone of multiple standards about a deal going sweet or sour. IMHO, feedback should [simply] be for an objective evaluation of a deal. Perhaps some rough, non-written but generally accepted rule about feedback should be in order ? Like, say:
  • Two weeks after payment without the item (or payment after a deal is set): neutral feedback
  • One month after payment without the item: negative feedback

I'm just suggesting as an idea, not a hard rule (maybe the delays should be longer, depending of in-stock items and such). That way everyone would know and understand there are consequences by not sending goods (or paying for them fast after saying you would in the first place), and this tool would attain it's proper goal: to warn people about members with whom deals didn't go so well. Most importantly, I'm guessing this would help reduce the number of people taking advantage of this or simply those who aren't serious about dealing with other persons. It certainly won't prevent the real scam.

Another thing is that contrary to the positive feedback, negative feedback tend to call for more explanation. You can say "Awsome guy to deal with" all right. But can you just say "horrible guy to deal with" ? Of course you can say "ripped me off" or "items received two months later", but sometimes it may call for some more details, no ? So I'm asking: should negative feedback be allowed more words, various sub-choices and stuff or would it make a mess out of all this and lead to abuse ? I don't know, but I feel it's a legitimate question.

After all, feedback is only about evaluating a person's ability to fulfill a deal, not about this person being nice/pretty/good airsoft player/etc. Maybe I'm offbase here. I don't know. What do you guys think about all this ? Do you feel the system is serving it's purpose all right ? If not, why ? and how could it be made better ?

Cheers.

Edit = the usual typos.
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Old October 20th, 2005, 12:11   #2
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My opinion

I have not done that many deals.. 3 I think.. every one without a hitch.

But in my opinion if the deal does not go down as agreed, then there is a breach of contract and a negative feedback should be entered.

For example, I send the money, you say you will ship the item today. I get nothing in the expected time.. I contact you, you say "oh, well I have not shipped it yet, but I will today.

That is grounds for a negative feedback.
Full stop.

Negatives should not be reserved for "rip off" situations.. People who do not fullfill their contracts, should have a "do not trade" tag added to their profile.

Flaking out on a deal.. as in saying you will buy something but dragging your feet on paying, is grounds for a "neutral" rating as there is no contract until money has been exchanged.
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Old October 20th, 2005, 13:10   #3
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There is neutral feedback ya know.

Use it for stuff that isn't really bad. eg. shipping was late but you did get your stuff.... buyer committed to sale but flaked out at the last second, etc.
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Old October 20th, 2005, 14:21   #4
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Yes, agree, Flakes on deals, deserve neutral as there was really no deal without the money changing hands.

But I disagree with neutral for late shipping, If you say you will ship it today.. and you ship it next week after I bug you about it.. You broke the terms of the agreement, and deserve a negative

Then... the system will work, people will know if they don't stick to the terms of their agreements they will suffer a bad rep.

What has to stop is the practice of waiting to see what the other guy says before you post your feedback.

Sellers should post as soon as they get their money. Buyers after they get their goods.

When deals go sour.. and don't carry through, then the seller should note a neutral because the buyer flaked.

If I paid up front.. at the agreed time, in the agreed manner, and you don't ship in the agreed time in the agreed manner, and give me a negative, or neutral because I gave you a negative.. that is abuse of the rating system and according to the stated guidelines.. your account should be deleted.
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Old October 20th, 2005, 15:40   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian McIlmoyle
Yes, agree, Flakes on deals, deserve neutral as there was really no deal without the money changing hands.
I disagree. I come from the old school where business is business, and a deal is a deal. An agreement to sell or purchase, whether verbal, by PM, or by email, is a legally-binding contract under the laws of Canada, plain and simple. You breach the contract, you get a negative feedback in my books.

I've usually been a buyer, not a seller in my transactions. That said, if someone approached me to buy my goods and then bailed at the last minute, negative feedback would be the least of their problems. I'd give them time to make good on the contract; if they chose not to honour their part of their bargain, I'd be filing in small claims court.
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Old October 20th, 2005, 16:30   #6
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eBay's rating system has always been flawed, and this is pretty much identical. What would really be needed is a scorecard, which would not really leave much room for subjective evaluation.

If someone flakes, you put em down for a flake. If you see someone with 10 flakes, it says something (like don't hold it for him if you have other buyers lined up). The guy's maybe not out to screw anyone, but has a hard time making his mind up.

For actual deals, fill in details (online survey style) and tabulate a final score. Was payment sent promptly? How long between payment and a tracking number? How long for the actual delivery? Was the item as described? etc. All the answers get a +/- value, all values are added up, and the result is a +/- score. For the sake of the example, say the two extreme scores are +5 and -5, you can count -1 to +1 are a neutral, and the two other ends as a + and -.

How does that help? Say that the guy is scoring slightly below average on all counts (e.g., the guy was slow shipping, but just a bit; the item had more wear than he'd claimed, but it's not broken or damaged, etc) . Most people would currently give a neutral or a positive. We tend to be forgiving that way. But from a totally objective point of view, that was a bad deal that deserves negative feedback.

And a longer comment line, where people can explain things, and maybe make a subjective observation if the final score doesn't quite reflect how they feel.
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Old October 20th, 2005, 17:57   #7
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a note on flakers: SPF? (sold pending flakers) i don't think so. do not say you want an item, until you are willing to ante up the cash. NOTHING is sold until you have the money. this is now my policy, with guys i do not know.
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Old October 20th, 2005, 18:22   #8
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flakers get neutral but if a seller ships a few days late they get a negative. I disagree entirely. As a seller its every bit as frustrating dealing with a tire kicker as it is when your buying and the person on the other end is late.

As a buyer i can simply click send to fulfill my obligation

As a seller, i mostly dont package items until the deal is done, sometimes the final deal involves additions/deletions to original item(s), pictures, private messages, emails, waiting for the buyers click to show up in my account. At that time its packaging time, plus heading out to whichever shipping establishment the final deal involves,etc.


A flake buy to me is actually more frustrating than a person that is a few days, a week, late....

That being said any delay in sending merchandise over a week is nothing short of poor salesmanship.
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Old October 20th, 2005, 18:43   #9
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yeha late shipping definitly does NOT require negative feedback IMO. As previously mentioned, much more goes into shipping, but there are so many other factors invoved. such as the current situation at Centerpoint mall causing a delay in the shipping my my G36 to a RELIABLE trader.

Recently hte PO at centerpoint mall in Toronto got flooded really nastily, and the storefront was heavily damaged. New floors, walls and roof have been installed, and the storefront that the PO was in has lost much stock. After bringing my G36 there to ship to Mb, I was quoted $63.44 for expresspost to MB, with 800 in insurance. Thats re-fucking-diculous, so i go home, and the next day I go to the PO in newtonbroke mall, where i pay a much more reasonable 33.28 for shipping, including insurance.

i know this is a specific occurance, but in all honesty, wierd shit like this happens a LOT when dealing with the PO, and there are just other factors involved that can delay shipping. Such as running out of Brown paper, or packing tape.

Shipping should be given a few days of leniency so long as the seller/trader stays in commo with the buyer/trader. The one thing that naggs the hell out of me with sellers that I will start giving a nutral rating for is not providing a tracking number. Its not hard, its on the RECIEPT that they gave you when you shipped it "the other day", so take 30 sec and post it.

/rant.
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Old October 21st, 2005, 00:41   #10
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Meeting, not meeting expectations

For me.. it is all about meeting expectations.

when buying.. if I say I will buy something.. I am poised over the "send money" button at my on line banking site. It goes within the hour that I say I will buy it, cause the deal is not real till the money is in the bank.

when selling, you are posting it for sale.. it should be ready to go.. whatever it is. Or you should set reasonable expectations as to when it will be sent.

If you tell me , "I will send it next week, as I am too tied up to get to the PO till next Tuesday... so you will get it at the latest the Tuesday after that", you have established an expectation on my part. if it shows up on the wednesday.. fine.. within reasonable parameters of expectation..If it does not show up and I have to rattle your chain to get you to send the item.. that is not yours anymore, to it's new owner.. well you get a negative.

If it is crawling up on the expectation date.. and you PM me and say.. "look I have to amend the shipping date.. you will get it the end of the week.. I had something come up that got in my way" I have new expectations.. and as long as you meet them.. you still get a positive..
Pull that twice.. you get a neutral, three times.. well now you're jerkin me and you get a negative.

pretty simple, Hold to the deal.. you get a positive, don't hold to the deal and make me chase you to get my stuff... you get a negative.

Jerk me around.. take my money and never send the stuff... well that is something well outside of a trader rating system.
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Old October 21st, 2005, 03:14   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian McIlmoyle
For me.. it is all about meeting expectations.

when buying.. if I say I will buy something.. I am poised over the "send money" button at my on line banking site. It goes within the hour that I say I will buy it, cause the deal is not real till the money is in the bank.

when selling, you are posting it for sale.. it should be ready to go.. whatever it is. Or you should set reasonable expectations as to when it will be sent.

If you tell me , "I will send it next week, as I am too tied up to get to the PO till next Tuesday... so you will get it at the latest the Tuesday after that", you have established an expectation on my part. if it shows up on the wednesday.. fine.. within reasonable parameters of expectation..If it does not show up and I have to rattle your chain to get you to send the item.. that is not yours anymore, to it's new owner.. well you get a negative.

If it is crawling up on the expectation date.. and you PM me and say.. "look I have to amend the shipping date.. you will get it the end of the week.. I had something come up that got in my way" I have new expectations.. and as long as you meet them.. you still get a positive..
Pull that twice.. you get a neutral, three times.. well now you're jerkin me and you get a negative.

pretty simple, Hold to the deal.. you get a positive, don't hold to the deal and make me chase you to get my stuff... you get a negative.

Jerk me around.. take my money and never send the stuff... well that is something well outside of a trader rating system.
See your stating two differnt things, one thing says you'll only leave a negative if you have to chase the seller, and your also saying a negative if it dosent arrive within the stated time, which is it?

Honestly, how much business have you done via mail, or PO, or at all even. Leeway of a few days i think is more than fair as long as the seller keeps in touch, given how busy things can get. For example, my above listed situation, or just not having time, it happens live with it. Also, your "didnt arrive when you said it would" rule include issues that are purley the fault of PO?
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Old October 21st, 2005, 09:10   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldman
yeha late shipping definitly does NOT require negative feedback IMO. As previously mentioned, much more goes into shipping, but there are so many other factors invoved. such as the current situation at Centerpoint mall causing a delay in the shipping my my G36 to a RELIABLE trader.

Recently hte PO at centerpoint mall in Toronto got flooded really nastily, and the storefront was heavily damaged. New floors, walls and roof have been installed, and the storefront that the PO was in has lost much stock. After bringing my G36 there to ship to Mb, I was quoted $63.44 for expresspost to MB, with 800 in insurance. Thats re-fucking-diculous, so i go home, and the next day I go to the PO in newtonbroke mall, where i pay a much more reasonable 33.28 for shipping, including insurance.

i know this is a specific occurance, but in all honesty, wierd shit like this happens a LOT when dealing with the PO, and there are just other factors involved that can delay shipping. Such as running out of Brown paper, or packing tape.

Shipping should be given a few days of leniency so long as the seller/trader stays in commo with the buyer/trader. The one thing that naggs the hell out of me with sellers that I will start giving a nutral rating for is not providing a tracking number. Its not hard, its on the RECIEPT that they gave you when you shipped it "the other day", so take 30 sec and post it.

/rant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldman
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian McIlmoyle
For me.. it is all about meeting expectations.

when buying.. if I say I will buy something.. I am poised over the "send money" button at my on line banking site. It goes within the hour that I say I will buy it, cause the deal is not real till the money is in the bank.

when selling, you are posting it for sale.. it should be ready to go.. whatever it is. Or you should set reasonable expectations as to when it will be sent.

If you tell me , "I will send it next week, as I am too tied up to get to the PO till next Tuesday... so you will get it at the latest the Tuesday after that", you have established an expectation on my part. if it shows up on the wednesday.. fine.. within reasonable parameters of expectation..If it does not show up and I have to rattle your chain to get you to send the item.. that is not yours anymore, to it's new owner.. well you get a negative.

If it is crawling up on the expectation date.. and you PM me and say.. "look I have to amend the shipping date.. you will get it the end of the week.. I had something come up that got in my way" I have new expectations.. and as long as you meet them.. you still get a positive..
Pull that twice.. you get a neutral, three times.. well now you're jerkin me and you get a negative.

pretty simple, Hold to the deal.. you get a positive, don't hold to the deal and make me chase you to get my stuff... you get a negative.

Jerk me around.. take my money and never send the stuff... well that is something well outside of a trader rating system.
See your stating two differnt things, one thing says you'll only leave a negative if you have to chase the seller, and your also saying a negative if it dosent arrive within the stated time, which is it?

Honestly, how much business have you done via mail, or PO, or at all even. Leeway of a few days i think is more than fair as long as the seller keeps in touch, given how busy things can get. For example, my above listed situation, or just not having time, it happens live with it. Also, your "didnt arrive when you said it would" rule include issues that are purley the fault of PO?
I completely agree with Goldman. His views are fair and well thought out without the "I payed, and I want it yesterday!!!" attitude.

As a seller you deal with alot of bullshit, and as for packaging the item, or items, before they sell.....NO! You have 5 items for sale after weeding through all the PM's asking questions they can find in 2 minutes if they'd search for their answers, the flakes, and the "I'm interested but it's too much." (why fuckin' even PM?). Then you get a guy who's interested in 3 of the items, pays for them, now you have to re-package??? Not fuckin' likely.

The package get's packaged after the payment is received. And hey some of us have a life, you pay late Friday night and I'm going away for the weekend (mind you you would be told this before-hand), your shit doesn't get shipped till Monday and that's that.

Some of this is extreme and some of it is basic. Every deal is unique, and you can't have a set standard for the unique. Basically, take every deal and assess it, then leave the apropriate rating for the deal in question.

Positive = Deal went as planed. or Was below expectations however was still acceptable.

Neutral = Satisfactory however could have been better.

Negative = Item not as described (and remember "One person's prize, is another's trash), "excellent condition" is relative. Jerked around. Shipping was slow as hell being shipped (not PO slow). No communication and left hanging after the funds were transfered.

COMMUNICATION AND HONESTY IS KEY!

My experience (not including about 30-35 other transactions outside of ASC and eBay):

ASC: http://www.airsoftcanada.com/traderr...e=2&viewtype=0

eBay: http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAP...&iid=-1&de=off
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Old October 21st, 2005, 11:47   #13
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Not what I said

The attitude,, is

I paid.. I expect it when **you** said you would send it.. It is not at all about how fast it arrives.. it is about ..do you do what you say you will do.
If you do.. you get a positive, if you don't and don't bother to provide an explaination so I can change my expectations you get a Negative.

I could care less how fast I get something.. If you say.. 6 weeks, and I send you the money.. then I agree to those terms. If is takes 8 weeks.. now you have broken the deal.

Communication is the key.. if you read all the "where is, Think i'v been screwed posts" it is not about how long something is taking.. it is always about. "My stuff is not here when he said it would be and now I can't find the guy".

When I do deals.. buying or selling... the terms are clear. and I hold to them, and I expect others to do the same, I'm reasonable.. if something comes up and the deal has to be changed, no problem, tell me, and then meet these new expectations.

The point of a trader rating system is to establish confidence in doing business with someone you don't know. Trader ratings quantify reputation, Reputation is based on .. mostly one thing, do you do what you say you will do? If you do.. you get positive ratings, and a good rep, if you don't you should get negative ratings and a bad rep.

It is really, pretty clear cut.
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Old October 21st, 2005, 12:01   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldman
[
See your stating two differnt things, one thing says you'll only leave a negative if you have to chase the seller, and your also saying a negative if it dosent arrive within the stated time, which is it?

?
Both... If I have to chase you to get you to send my item to me.. Negative.
If you say it will be here in a week and it takes 3 because you never shipped it until a week after it should have been there.. and you never bothered to inform me about the delay, Negative.

If you have to delay..and let me know in a timely manner, and it arrives within a day or so of when you said.. that is in my opinion a good deal, and worthy of a positive.

You delay 2 times... give weak excuses.. but keep me informed.. Neutral

You delay, and delay.. and delay... and I start to wonder if you even have the item... the excuses are weak.. and I start to think.. hmm maybe I've been ripped off, you get negative.

As far as having items ready to go... what I mean by that is you should be able to package it up and send it within a day or so... bacause you have the item in your possession... It is not "at my brother's place.. and my car broke down last week so its going to be a while until I can get my hands on the item to send it to you".

If that is the case.. the buyer should know going in.. before he spends his money,

Again.. it's about meeting the expectations that you set in your client.
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Old October 21st, 2005, 13:07   #15
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Just FYI, I expanded the comment space to 200 characters, I have no idea why it was only 80 stock, I can make it longer if it helps. No reason not to, I guess.
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