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Old March 28th, 2014, 11:30   #31
CJay
 
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Yes but the credit card option is really the only way to do what we can to assure it. However the other option suggested was to buddy up with local airsoft sites and transfer verification from that end. Bit more work but may be worth it as well. We're looking at a couple options.

Now the third option open to us is a bit more intense but ultimately I think maybe a decent idea an that's to set up a Canadian skirmisher database. Much similar to what UKARA in the uk does. Thoughts?

Anddont worry I appreciate the shear scale of that suggestion but as a more permanent solution it may be the best way.
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Old March 28th, 2014, 13:16   #32
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So some one gives little 8yr old Johnny one of those credit card gift cards that can be used everywhere now a days. Credit card verification process bypassed.
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Old March 28th, 2014, 13:47   #33
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You are aware that with a business account on paypal you can select the raw card data requirement?

At any rate you seem to be neglecting the fact tht every retailer in Canada is then in the same boat so really your argument is with the system as a whole so please feel free to post that argument elsewhere but let's try to keep things in perspective here.

Admittedly there is a potential issue with the system I've developed therefore were going to fix it using the most secure method we can. At this stage the credit card method via the paypal ipn and limiting th api is as secure as you get short of collecting personal documentation etc. you are correct that anyone can then waltz in with a visa gift card and use it however the responsibility for that then squarely rests on the person who is either usin the card or those that gave it to them an I am 100% satisfied that I have done everything I can realistically do to prevent little johnny from gettin his hands on a restricted product.

Now saying that also I have already suggested that maybe there now needs to be some form of skirmisher database that retailers can access to assure themselves that credit card fraud is not being used to buy goods illegally.

I've even suggested that if be willing to work on such a database and the resources surrounding it but as I stated it is not an easy or even simple task an would require a massive concerted effort across all of Canada. But I do believe it to be possible and maybe that's where we need to start.

For the time being though the solution of restricting via credit card is the only viable option an I believe it to be enough.

No matter what you do here there is always a risk that someone finds a way around your measures and that argument can be made relentlessly and as such is a bit stupid at the point it's gettin to.
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Old March 28th, 2014, 14:30   #34
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The flag this raises with me is do I want my info on that site?

The geo location bit on the want ads gives me enough pause and pouring my key personal details into a site that may be fly by night is a big no can do.
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Old March 28th, 2014, 14:37   #35
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I think no matter how many safe-guards you might try to implement in order to prevent the access and distribution of merchandise out of the hands of minors, there will be one of those "super-intelligent" kids as Kokanee put it who will find a way to bypass it.

CJay, I get your point... not even ASC is 100% fool-proof because there is some goofus parent or age-of-majority user out there that will buy something off here and sell it to someone under 18. I think so long as you take the path you're on right now, it will discourage by-and-large the majority of minors who try to acquire an airsoft gun.

Realistically, airsofters should be lobbying this hobby as a sport and strive to one day attaining the reputation it has in countries like Japan. For now, we have to be diligent and spread awareness lest snot-nosed punks wreck it for us. -.-
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Old March 28th, 2014, 14:47   #36
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I hear ya. The geo location is simply a reflection of the location you enter into the address field on the ad posting. You can leave that if you like. Basically it will simply centre the icon on the city centre or town centre of whatever you specify under location. There's no location tracking present in the software and it conforms to the us Canadian and eu standards in that respect. Basically if u type in Calgary and no more specifics it'll city centre Calgary but if you type in your full address it'll use that and pin you on the map lol.

As for personal info with the credit card system it'll all be handled by the paypal ipn and is under it's legal jurisdiction which I have nothing to do with. Even if you type your card in manually I wouldn't be given that info.

In respect to the skirmisher database if it will go ahead ever it'll be off in the future and will have to be very carefully thought out and in addition would have to be collaborated on by Canadian retailers etc. as I said it's not impossible, just extremely hard. As it stands if you are age verified with asc or any of the local clubs here then your personal info is indeed stored and that's a good thing as far as I can see. You are correct though that personal info would have to be stored in an appropriate manner conforming to privacy rules in any given Province and it does differ from Province to Province.

Again though thts an issue for a lot further down the line but worth thinkin about.
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Old March 28th, 2014, 22:32   #37
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I don't think I'll get involved. Heck, I said I tried to create an account and got an error that I passed in to you, and you've yet to even acknowledge what I said.
That's not an ideal way to work.
Best wishes tho, truly.
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Old March 28th, 2014, 23:08   #38
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Dude I replied. Albeit it may have been attached to a longer message. As I said then we tracked bak the error and think we've fixed it. I asked you to try again.

Please read everything before you criticise. I trust you can find it yourself now you have been notified of the response I gave earlier.
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Old March 29th, 2014, 01:09   #39
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Sorry that you thought I was criticizing. Certainly wasn't meant to come across that way. Might I suggest you separate you're responses a touch? With a bit of a run on sometimes you can lose what you're trying to say.
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Old March 29th, 2014, 09:48   #40
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Do any of the Canadian retailers have a process in place to prevent minors from purchasing? The case studies should be directed at our existing retail system as there is nothing stopping minors from purchasing online.
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Old March 29th, 2014, 12:19   #41
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As it stands right now, a minor can buy airsoft products online within Canada or internationally easily, with Google and a credit card. Every country has its laws and regulations, and every website that deals with, let's say "mature", material has their age gates; well, not all. Their are several international porn, airsoft, whatever sites, that have no age checking, and can be either accessed or purchased from without proof of age. This site will not be treated any different on the international market. A young child could get a drill, and get inside his father's gun cabinet if he sets his mind to it. The question here is; what's reasonably secure for a Canadian market? You can only build your gate so high, but not impossible to climb. Also, you cannot take all responsibility for the way people will act. At some point the parents must be held accountable, and the authorities must be able to step in. If someone puts up internationally recognized age gate software, and people try and bypass it, who should be held responsible?

That kid who was killed in California by police, because he was in possession of airsoft guns, who's really responsible? The police? The parents? The kid? The friend who lent them to him? His parents? The retailer? Honestly, perhaps talk to someone who specializes in this sort of legal crap within Canada. Is your lawyer familiar with firearms, fraud, and international trade? Honestly, the ASC AV system is not attainable on an international scale, and that won't stop progress. The other option is to not include Canada in your system, but I don't see that happening.

By the way, every time I try and access your website, it is down.

Now that I think of it, isn't there a system in Canada that employers, banks, and business owners use to double check people are who they say they are? If you're becoming a business, could you not use that? It's almost as good as our AV system, but you'd need fewer agents.
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Old March 29th, 2014, 14:58   #42
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you are correct that anyone can then waltz in with a visa gift card and use it however the responsibility for that then squarely rests on the person who is either usin the card or those that gave it to them an I am 100% satisfied that I have done everything I can realistically do to prevent little johnny from gettin his hands on a restricted product.
No. A minor is not lawfully responsible for their actions and as such cannot form a bonding contract. What you are doing is providing a way to generate a profit for your pocket and if Dirty Ernie shoots his little sisters Eye out then you have culpability. Because there's money in your pocket. Potential liability Compensation. How to ensure that is a) simply do not sell them online, b) Get prepared for the litigation c) create a physical location that demonstrates due diligence on confirmation of Age of Majority.

Too, when you come to ASC looking for people to pick over your site the replies you should make are, Thank You. Siggy Poo for example but not solely, told you he tried and then said screw it. He paid you an additional courtesy of telling you what the fkn trouble was. Say "Thank You"

Starting this Gig will be frustrating. Don't kill it before it leaves the nest. Asked for Criticism don't bitch when replies aren't all rainbows and kittens.
Good luck
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Old March 29th, 2014, 15:31   #43
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the only thing in the past that stopped minors from easily acquiring guns was the $600 price tag.
I knew a retailer and there wasnt an EASY way to control it back then. its easy in person but not online.
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Old March 29th, 2014, 20:48   #44
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As far as I can tell there's not retailer selling guns online in Canada that asks for any form of Id check / age verification as it's essentially impossible on that scale, other than paying with a credit card perhaps but as it's been pointed out emt is also accepted for most online orders.

Again the couple lawyers we have doing anything with this have stated that there's no feasible way of checking unless you have an in person meeting. We all know how often that happens.

Again I think we are coming back to some sort of regulated list of players that retailers have access too. Ideal yes. Realistic? Other countries have managed it so why not? Definitely not an overnight project though by a long long shot. Just out of interest. Anyone interested in perhaps looking at getting the ball rolling? I have resources at my disposal but limited time as always.

Sorry about the site being down also. I'm havin a minor issue in that the database is being a moody child right now. Later tonight hopefully.
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Old March 29th, 2014, 21:01   #45
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Originally Posted by CJay View Post
As far as I can tell there's not retailer selling guns online in Canada that asks for any form of Id check / age verification as it's essentially impossible on that scale,
You didn't check very hard then. Retailers who sell online can utilize a service from CanadaPost which holds the parcel for pickup at a post office and requires proof of being 18/19+ from the recipient before handing over the parcel.
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