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TM 5.1 Hi-Capa troubleshooting help!

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Old February 11th, 2014, 23:25   #1
Trixshooter
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
TM 5.1 Hi-Capa troubleshooting help!

My Hi-Capa threw in the towel after two weeks and some 800bb's...

RMA turnaround time 3 weeks, it came back with more faults than I returned it with.

Trying to fix it myself now, but it does not work properly.
Thus I humbly ask for your expert help mates!

Got these replacements,
airsoft surgeon/gun bro's toblerone ported/lightened slide
airsoft surgeon extreme lightened bb housing
airsoft surgeon enhanced nozzle/muzzle
airsoft surgeon mainspring
airsoft surgeon hammer spring
ra-tech bucking (reviewed as winner over nineball on youtube)
aip short-stroke-dingdong kit
aip hopup
pdi 6.01 inner barrel
shooters mag lips
asoc (and some other crap)

Threw the shxxxeit together,
it does not cycle right so I need your expert help sorting her out mates!

The last small bit before lockup it sticks.
Further the slide also feels like hanging up on the hammer on its way back forward again...
Now I only get a couple of BBs out of the mag that when new - I gassed and got two full clips of BB's out of that same single gas refill...

I tricked out any and all sources of mis-fitness I could narrow down.
In plain swedish I got wild with the files, then rabid, then berserk...
In detail I filed to get the plastic outer barrel and the aip hopup thinner - as the combined team was to thick and squashed together preventing lug lockup. (Pherhaps the incredible hulk could force it to lockup- but wouldnt call it a smooth ride tho...)
Also threw out the RA bucking as it apparantly worsened all problems...
I filed on the plastic lugs, and rounded off the lugs in the slide.
filed down the rails for smoother slideride,
(marked with black marker pen and adressed the issues highlighted)
The slidestop would not align, so I adressed the lockup until it appears right on.
The list is already to long...

How can I fix it, can I?

Yeeep, forgot sometimes the magazine just pushes all gas through the barrel until empty in one loooong flush...

So with this long "swe-nglish" description I am at your knowledged mercy mates!
What to do?

/Trix
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Old February 12th, 2014, 01:34   #2
turok_t
 
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Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
To diagnose your problem will be very difficult as we do not have the gun in front is us. Before you install all of three upgrades, you meed to figure out what was the actual problem before you took it for repairs. Buying a plethora of upgrades I'm hopes of fixing the problem may not solve the issue, only masking it. You need to find out the source of your problem first. Try this:

Install all stock parts and see how it fires. If there is a problem there, diagnose and fix. Slowly swap out one part for another upgrade part and see how the gun performs.

The slide hanging when returning to battery is probably from the top of the hammer catching on the rear if the bbu. Your inability to fire less bbs can result from a dec I'm gas efficiency from the mag to the air nozzle, or heavier slide requiring more gas, or incorrect assembly of the floating valve I'm the nozzle, or the increase strength of your airsoft surgeon hammer spring resulting in more gas release per shot.

I would not sand or grind down the hop up rubber, as I never had the need to do this. I highly doubt tha the ratech bucking is much better than the nineball one, so you may want to reconsider. Based on your description, you modified and sanded a lot of parts which may be the culprit of all the issues you are seeing. I would suggest reverting all back to stock and starting all over to isolate the problem. With all the gas venting out from your description it seems like there is something wrong with your floating valve/nozzle, or your magazine gas route isn't aligned with the nozzle.

Unfortunately, without the gun at hand, and with all these upgrade parts installed, it is very difficulty to diagnose your issue(s).
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Old February 12th, 2014, 09:13   #3
apilar
 
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Location: Port Elgin, Ontario --&-- London, Ontario
Swap each part separate and see when the problems arise. Just like turok said.

Also, not sure how new you are to building pistols... but it takes a lot more know how than 'throwing shit together' to get it to run properly. often parts are oversized so they can be custom fit. I recently built a 1911 and the hammer was sticking on the Bbh similar to your issue. I know the mechanics of a 1911 and I know the problem was that the hammer wasn't being pushed far enough down by the bbh... I also know that modifying the hammer can screw the whole assembly up... either way I ended up modifying the engagement points between the sear and hammer for a perfect running gun...

My point in all this... you can't just throw upgrade parts into a gun and expect it to be a beast. You often need to file and fit parts to eachother and that requires knowing how they fit.

Again, fit each part one by one and see where the problem is. Best way to learn is through experience! Good luck!
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Old February 12th, 2014, 09:34   #4
turok_t
 
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And to piggy back what Apilar wrote, before you modify each part, you need to indicate its purpose and function. You need to understand the implications if you can modify too much and its effect on the gun.

Example: For instance, if lets say you found out that the hammer top was catching on the rear of the BBU and you decide to remove some material on the top of the hammer. You run the risk of modifying too much on the hammer that the bbu is unable to push the hammer down during each cycle.

So you need to understand, the function of each part, and its implication on other components when you modify it. You can't throw everything together and expect it to work since a lot of aftermarket parts are not made to spec with their stock counterparts.
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Old February 12th, 2014, 12:58   #5
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Throwing shit at a gun won't make it better, or in your case, work at all. Now you have the fun of taking everything apart and test each and every part. This is what a gun tech would have to do if he had your gun. You might have to fit parts, mod others and maybe have luck with some of the things you've put in. Next time, upgrade slowly and test each part before final assembly. Unless you know what you're doing.
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Old February 12th, 2014, 15:44   #6
Trixshooter
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Deeply appreciate your time and expertise mates!

Apilar,
How did you do the hammer/sear modification you describe?
I thought that filing the stock parts could only shorten the hammer stroke?

Answer to Q,
my two weeks old stock TM is bad bad bad everywhere so I did not have the fortune to compare part by part. Thats why I had to get a hole pile of stuff to save it.

If you looking for details and backstory...
My stock Marui has a cracked slide, it cannot hold a rear sight and the nozzle-returnspring bends and turns to mush if slide is cycled. It also has severe problems with spraying gas back over gripping hand and so forth...

Slide needs replacement and I had 100% advice to replace with metal slide.

Metal is obviously heavier than metal so I went for the lightest slide I found.

All my mates run TM 5.1's, theirs rock'n roll 24/7,
my 5.1 since new is as reliable as a bipolar g/f blowing off steam.

Deduction, get a complete setup of vital gas-parts foodchain.

About the advice of knowing what I'm doing and taking it slow, I dont have much choice but to try myself if I want it fixed/repaired. And about the slow part and how I approached the so called drop-in slide fitting I don't mind sharing the details if you're interested...

Here I am,
Started on the slide, it would not slip on even using a sledgehammer.
Filing description,
1/ Cleared all metal burr's out (The frame is obviously casted) on frame.
2/ Filed off casting burrs adjacent to the slides dustcover.
3/ Black marker - then slide on/off to se where it rubs fixed!
4/ Fitted slidestop by Assemblying barrelsin+out&hopup, put it in gun (without slide). 7mm off, adressed and filed corresponding surfaces to fit hopup lock-lugs & frame to slidestop pin.
5/ Adressed outer barrel lockup movement (as in the outer barrel moves "up" to engage the slide lugs) but the outer inner barrel became a solid one-piece when assembled. Cause, the frame squezed the outer and inner barrel (underside) so it froze solid. Sorted this out by filing correct surfaces.
BUT later assembled in slide I'm having some issues with this.
5 and a half/ Rail cuts on slide ends to early, cut off 5mm from the front frame rails but it still needs rounding off to allow full rear motion of slide without hookup. I round off all frame rails except the rear that's visible. Diamond tool them and mirror polish.
6/ Tried slide lockup by entering only outer barrel. Used calipers to fit lockup. Rounded off the sharp edges of slide lugs. Removed two purposely high points at right and left side of slide port, apparantly meant to squeeze fit the outer barrel hood in the slide port.
7/ Assembled slide and tried on frame. Needed fitting of dustcover (tried to do it as nice as I could with bad tools as I prefer no wear marks on the dustcover from the framechannel.
8/Barrel was angled upwards and last 35mm prevented slide from moving forward in lock position. I also drew the ocular conclusion the nozzle/hopup penetration could use a subtle slack. Adressed issues with file.
9/Paused here and gave all adressed issues a thorough cleaning with diamond tools for mirror finish.

Assembly and testfire, one shot leaked all gas out the barrel (one shot/misfire)

Assessed and concluded that about the last 5mm slidetravel before lockup has to much resistance.
Further the hammer presents more slide resistance than the original slide, even hanging up slide through contact points hammer/bjhousing hunchback.
Counter tried all original parts with the new parts consequitevly to compare any and all differences.
There is an hilarious amount of slack in the stock plastic slide.
I decided next to give the aluminium slide just a tad slack to check function.
Re-did everything above again and cleaned out with diamond tools.

Now I got 15 shots out of a mag (Stock I could get +60 bb's out of a single mag on one refill)

I then tried to
10/ break lug edges and adress the lock-up in particular. Experiment with springs to see how it affected the last 5mm barrel/slide lockup.
11/ Polished hammer and examined the surfaces hammer/bjhousing and the resistance issue
12/ Mirror polished all contact surfaces again, rounded off edges and so forth. Pretty much re-did all points.
13/ swapped the RA-tech bucking with stock, and then back again. The out-sticking part of bucking clearly build the width of the assembly. Shaved the outstanding part away from the hopup. Smoother lockup motion followed.
14/ Tried different inner barrels. Adressed casting marks/spots on outer barrel. Lubed everything.

Testfire,
Got 17 rounds off... Slide hangs up on bjhousing knob at the last 17 round. I even get 3-5 bb-less farts off. Although those last poofters demanded manual cycling, it is still better than before. Now it appears it does not leek gas like a mel brooks western any longer.

Here I'm stuck...


If I get +60 BB's off stock, how many should I look to expect from a metal slide upgraded?

Advice how to fix it up and get her running comes deeply appreciated mates!

/Trixshooter

Last edited by Trixshooter; February 12th, 2014 at 15:53..
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Old February 12th, 2014, 15:50   #7
Trixshooter
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
PS. I was told, youtubed and read on dealer websites that these metal slides are drop-ins. SOMETIMES requiring minor fitting.

Now remember mentioned friends?
Well one of them also got a metal slide from different manufacturer, shooters design.
Guess what, hes having identical problems all the way...

Would a steel outer barrel make most our troubles dissappear?
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Old February 12th, 2014, 21:30   #8
turok_t
 
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trixshooter View Post
Deeply appreciate your time and expertise mates!

Apilar,
How did you do the hammer/sear modification you describe?
I thought that filing the stock parts could only shorten the hammer stroke?

Answer to Q,
my two weeks old stock TM is bad bad bad everywhere so I did not have the fortune to compare part by part. Thats why I had to get a hole pile of stuff to save it.

If you looking for details and backstory...
My stock Marui has a cracked slide, it cannot hold a rear sight and the nozzle-returnspring bends and turns to mush if slide is cycled. It also has severe problems with spraying gas back over gripping hand and so forth...

Slide needs replacement and I had 100% advice to replace with metal slide.

Metal is obviously heavier than metal so I went for the lightest slide I found.

All my mates run TM 5.1's, theirs rock'n roll 24/7,
my 5.1 since new is as reliable as a bipolar g/f blowing off steam.

Deduction, get a complete setup of vital gas-parts foodchain.

About the advice of knowing what I'm doing and taking it slow, I dont have much choice but to try myself if I want it fixed/repaired. And about the slow part and how I approached the so called drop-in slide fitting I don't mind sharing the details if you're interested...

Here I am,
Started on the slide, it would not slip on even using a sledgehammer.
Filing description,
1/ Cleared all metal burr's out (The frame is obviously casted) on frame.
2/ Filed off casting burrs adjacent to the slides dustcover.
3/ Black marker - then slide on/off to se where it rubs fixed!
4/ Fitted slidestop by Assemblying barrelsin+out&hopup, put it in gun (without slide). 7mm off, adressed and filed corresponding surfaces to fit hopup lock-lugs & frame to slidestop pin.
5/ Adressed outer barrel lockup movement (as in the outer barrel moves "up" to engage the slide lugs) but the outer inner barrel became a solid one-piece when assembled. Cause, the frame squezed the outer and inner barrel (underside) so it froze solid. Sorted this out by filing correct surfaces.
BUT later assembled in slide I'm having some issues with this.
5 and a half/ Rail cuts on slide ends to early, cut off 5mm from the front frame rails but it still needs rounding off to allow full rear motion of slide without hookup. I round off all frame rails except the rear that's visible. Diamond tool them and mirror polish.
6/ Tried slide lockup by entering only outer barrel. Used calipers to fit lockup. Rounded off the sharp edges of slide lugs. Removed two purposely high points at right and left side of slide port, apparantly meant to squeeze fit the outer barrel hood in the slide port.
7/ Assembled slide and tried on frame. Needed fitting of dustcover (tried to do it as nice as I could with bad tools as I prefer no wear marks on the dustcover from the framechannel.
8/Barrel was angled upwards and last 35mm prevented slide from moving forward in lock position. I also drew the ocular conclusion the nozzle/hopup penetration could use a subtle slack. Adressed issues with file.
9/Paused here and gave all adressed issues a thorough cleaning with diamond tools for mirror finish.

Assembly and testfire, one shot leaked all gas out the barrel (one shot/misfire)

Assessed and concluded that about the last 5mm slidetravel before lockup has to much resistance.
Further the hammer presents more slide resistance than the original slide, even hanging up slide through contact points hammer/bjhousing hunchback.
Counter tried all original parts with the new parts consequitevly to compare any and all differences.
There is an hilarious amount of slack in the stock plastic slide.
I decided next to give the aluminium slide just a tad slack to check function.
Re-did everything above again and cleaned out with diamond tools.

Now I got 15 shots out of a mag (Stock I could get +60 bb's out of a single mag on one refill)

I then tried to
10/ break lug edges and adress the lock-up in particular. Experiment with springs to see how it affected the last 5mm barrel/slide lockup.
11/ Polished hammer and examined the surfaces hammer/bjhousing and the resistance issue
12/ Mirror polished all contact surfaces again, rounded off edges and so forth. Pretty much re-did all points.
13/ swapped the RA-tech bucking with stock, and then back again. The out-sticking part of bucking clearly build the width of the assembly. Shaved the outstanding part away from the hopup. Smoother lockup motion followed.
14/ Tried different inner barrels. Adressed casting marks/spots on outer barrel. Lubed everything.

Testfire,
Got 17 rounds off... Slide hangs up on bjhousing knob at the last 17 round. I even get 3-5 bb-less farts off. Although those last poofters demanded manual cycling, it is still better than before. Now it appears it does not leek gas like a mel brooks western any longer.

Here I'm stuck...


If I get +60 BB's off stock, how many should I look to expect from a metal slide upgraded?

Advice how to fix it up and get her running comes deeply appreciated mates!

/Trixshooter
Thanks for the detailed description re: each step. You indicated that you removed burrs from here and there, filed off rubbing parts etc. How do we know if you have removed too much than required which may affect the performance of the slide? For instance, what if you removed too much than required causing the slide to sit to high resulting in a decrease in gas efficiency? We don't know that because we dont have the gun in front of us.

You indicated that you "testfire, one shot leaked all gas out of the barrel (one shot/misfire)" and you further inspected the hammer and the bbu and how they hung up. Maybe the air nozzle of the slide isn't aligning with the gas route?
Maybe the air nozzle in the new slide is sitting higher causing gas to leak and not entering into the air nozzle?

I feel like you are doing A LOT of mods, filing, using diamond tools. If you feel that all these mods, filing is not solving the problem, you should STOP, and try to diagnose the problem more conservatively. Obviously, your assumption of the surfaces, or bumps is not solving the problem. So before you do anymore grinding, sanding and turning your parts into a pile of dust, try to come out with a different theory on why the gun isn't working.

Your problem seems more of a floating valve/nozzle/gas efficiency issue. Did you check that the piston head makes good seal with the nozzle? How did you check to ensure that the air nozzle is making a good seal with the gas route? How do you know that the slide is not prematurely tripping the disconnector resulting in less gas output.

Are you sure you understand what every internal part of the gun does and its role throughout the cycling of the gun? I feel like from your description, you are just removing material from places that appear to be "stuck" but aren't investigating deeper into the functions of the gun and why its behaving the way it is.
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Old February 12th, 2014, 21:32   #9
turok_t
 
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Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trixshooter View Post
PS. I was told, youtubed and read on dealer websites that these metal slides are drop-ins. SOMETIMES requiring minor fitting.

Now remember mentioned friends?
Well one of them also got a metal slide from different manufacturer, shooters design.
Guess what, hes having identical problems all the way...

Would a steel outer barrel make most our troubles dissappear?
Nope, you are just trying to mask an issue that you have not yet diagnosed. Buying any upgrade part will not magically "make most our troubles disappear".
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Old February 12th, 2014, 21:59   #10
e-luder
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trixshooter View Post
PS. I was told, youtubed and read on dealer websites that these metal slides are drop-ins. SOMETIMES requiring minor fitting.

Now remember mentioned friends?
Well one of them also got a metal slide from different manufacturer, shooters design.
Guess what, hes having identical problems all the way...

Would a steel outer barrel make most our troubles dissappear?
HA!

If I had a nickel for everytime I heard that....

Nothing is ever guaranteed that it's a "drop-in" fit.
THere will always be a need to bust out the needle files and sandpaper and polish ....and...beer...andd..bison burgers.

It's one thing to buy parts. It's another thing to fit them in PROPERLY...
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Old February 12th, 2014, 23:00   #11
Trixshooter
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by turok_t View Post
Nope, you are just trying to mask an issue that you have not yet diagnosed. Buying any upgrade part will not magically "make most our troubles disappear".
Diagnose summary,
It does not lock up properly, the stock plastic outer barrel does not move properly over the hopup/inner barrel. The plastic outer barrel have issues fitting stripped down inside the slide. The assembled handgun have a slightly fishy angle on outer barrel, due partly to the squeeze fit between hopup/outer barrel inside the frame.

The plastic stock barrel and housing cannot be be filed down the width of the squeeze. Hopup for obvious reasons, the outer barrel because it is chromed plastic. (once through the chrome the plastic stock barrel is a joke that wont make many laughs before broke)
However I COULD file a metal outer barrel IF necessary.

Thats a quick summary as to why I ask if a metal outer barrel helped other out fitting the slide.


Unfortunately the closest gunsmith around is 100 miles away (as in 1000 kilometers single way) and he deals not in airsoft but in the powder powered equals...
About gunsmithing skills, I suck!
I have not that much experience in pistol gunsmithing, it's limited to tricking out two CZ Shadows and a Walther P22 short version. I unfortunately have little more experience trimming revolvers, somewhere in the neighbourhood of 125-175 Smith & Wessons and a handful colts/rugers due to the fact my mates is in the same situation as me, and for some reason the keep coming to me. (poor bastards)
To clarify it means about zilch, zero, nada when comes to the issue at hand, an Airsoft pistol. Pistols are a different game altogether...

So I deeply appreciate your patience and participation mates!

/Trix
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Old February 12th, 2014, 23:11   #12
apilar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Port Elgin, Ontario --&-- London, Ontario
That is very strange you are having so many problems with a stock marui barrel. There should be no problems with the hop unit and the plastic barrel in any way... they are designed to work perfect and i have not heard of one that didn't work or fit. If anything the metal barrels are worse and subject to more problems.

Also, for the lugs, if you are using the plastic barrel you dont need to file EVERYTHING off the lugs... the plastic will wear and eventually sit where it needs to be... THEN it will wear out more and then you replace it with a metal barrel or another plastic one.

As for my fix with the hammer n blowback housing catching:

the hammer has two little teeth on it (near the hammer strut)... top tooth is for half cock position, and the second tooth is for full.

I noticed that my blowback housing would push the hammer far enough down (to the point where it should engage the 'full tooth'. Sometimes it caught it, sometimes it didn't.

Also, i noticed that when it did catch it, there was a substantial gap between the hammer and blowback housing. So, in this situation (this is not the big secret fix to all problems) but what I did was shaved the 2nd tooth (full cock) down. I made it shorter so the hammer didn't have to be pushed down as far when the blowback housing interacted with it.

There is a sweet spot for doing this!!!

Too much filing and you completely screw everything up. Take too much material off that tooth and your hammer will engage the full cock position and be sitting right under the blowback housing and every single time it will get stuck.

Last edited by apilar; February 12th, 2014 at 23:12.. Reason: spelling...
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Old February 12th, 2014, 23:38   #13
Trixshooter
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
I'm trying to follow, do you mean that the hammer will lock further down and clear the blowback housing,
when you shaved the 2 tooth?

Could you possibly post a pic and explain with it as reference points?
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Old February 13th, 2014, 00:28   #14
apilar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Port Elgin, Ontario --&-- London, Ontario
Yeah Ill post some pics tomorrow

It has been a long day and a busy morning coming. off to bed! Ill get the pics up as soon as i can!
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Old February 13th, 2014, 11:08   #15
apilar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Port Elgin, Ontario --&-- London, Ontario
Alright, attached are 4 pictures.

One picture shows how the hammer and sear align when the hammer is in battery/resting/unable to shoot.

Picture two shows the hammer as the slide pushes it back, the hammer pivots on its post and engages that first tooth. This is the half cocked position.

Picture three shows the hammer in its fully cocked position. The slide has pushed the hammer down and it has engaged.

Now, my problem was, that as the slide came back and pushed the hammer down it easily cleared the half cock tooth.

BUT

It did not always make it to the fully cocked tooth and the hammer would be stuck between the half cock and full cock tooth and the blowback housing would get caught on the hammer (obviously).

So, by pushing the hammer down manually and noticing the LARGE gap between the blowback housing and the hammer when the hammer was engaged properly with the full cock tooth, i decided that if i filed the full cock tooth shorter. (picture 4)

this gets hard to explain --- ok so by filing the full cock tooth shorter, it allowed the hammer to be pushed down by the slide and engage the tooth sooner. However, by doing this it also decreases the distance between the blowback housing and the top of the hammer ( remember my hammer and blockback housing had a big gap)

Now, the slide cycles, the hammer gets pushed down and perfectly engages the full cock tooth.



As far as i can tell, your sear is engaging the full cock tooth perfectly fine and still hitting the blowback housing?

The only thing I could think to solve that problem is basically the reverse of what i did... You need MORE material in the teeth and sear to hold the hammer lower.

It is a common problem with stock... i say common... it has happened to me... with stock marui internals because they are not steel.. after time the repeated catching and releasing deforms the sear and hammer teeth causing the hammer to sit higher and higher (Even though its fully engaged) this will lead to jamming on the blowback housing.

New internals should fix this because they will 'replace' the worn out materials but then you can always run into problems like what i just described...

Basically it comes down to knowing what youre looking for. I understand that there are no gun docs around and youre kind of on your own. Just do your research and take your time.


Lazouche custom shop - youtube - has made many videos about 1911 platforms and it is a great wealth of information. It is possible that in one of his videos you might be able to find the info you are looking for.
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