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Old January 10th, 2014, 18:33   #31
Cliffradical
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FPS limits indoors can be touchy. I advocate a hard stop at 350fps for a few reasons.

1- Most CQB- length AEGs without extensive mods (I'm talking a spring swap downwards with some light compression work) end up shooting 310-340fps. After the springs break in, they may 'lose' a shade more. Getting up to to the magical "I want my gun to shoot the limit!!#%^" 345-355fps range takes a wasted-effort amount of fuckery, or starting with an over-powered spring (like a 110), and leaving an intentional leak somewhere, which has obvious downsides along with marking the user as a bit of a jackass.
A 350fps limit is mostly there to allow for some wiggle-room for people whose brand-new guns haven't relaxed yet, and to limit the damage that an adjustable gas gun user with anger problems can do.
Most green gas (propane) guns fall somewhere between 290 and 330fps.

2- Most people who play regularly don't use full-auto, because it is wasteful, unnecessary, and furthermore sucks to receive. Use and/ or misuse of fire modes is a pretty reliable gauge of a player's time in the sport, or relative level of maturity/ empathy and so can be instantly forgiven, tolerated, or ruthlessly grumbled about based on an individual's experience and character.

3- Judging and using an adequate level of safety gear is 101% the responsibility of the individual. I don't like it when people bleed all over my gym's walls, but I know from experience that the carload of shit the guy in the t-shirt will get from his girlfriend is far worse than the infections tissue impact trauma can bring (seriously, we're launching plastic orbs at high speed into each other's bodies. All kinds of people touch them with their disgusting human hands, and every surface is covered in sweat and sweat residue. Wear some goddamn sleeves).

4- The saddest reason: Player ethics. I can't support any less than a 350fps cap because my extensive use of spring shotguns (which clock in at a TM-type average 280-290) that unless you are hunting faces, hands, and kidneys, ~40% of your hits will not be called. They are simply too light at longer ranges to make enough impact on layered clothing or noise on gear to be called reliably.
It's rarely the opposing player's fault. I've seen Veteran players fail to hear and acknowledge gear hits under 300fps, and those same players are ones I can count on to call 99.99% of the time.
Guns in that range may be fine outside, but indoor places are noisy and the sound scape is disorienting, especially if there is music or white noise playing in the background.
Newer players don't know how to listen for hits yet, and experienced players who have switched to a new LBE platform don't know what their gear sounds like yet.
310/ 20fps+ makes a good, audible *THWAP* on textiles and a *GISH* on walls, with the added benefit of "Don't you fucking tell me you didn't feel that, I will shoot your ass exclusively now" factor.

5- BBs traveling under 300fps travel 100ft very slowly.

6- It's a limit, not a goal.
All of these factors are pretty much summed up here.
Under 350, danger is present but can be pretty easily controlled. Over 350, things get dicey real fast. Remember, any fps limit will be fairly arbitrary, as standard mods and upgrades (with the exception of regulated gas systems) fall somewhere near the limit, never precisely at it.

What you want to do with your facility is to develop a player base who uses their equipment as tools in pursuit of a goal, whether that goal is to get exercise, shed stress, practice a martial art, or just make friends and have fun.
The gun isn't the point in and of itself, but it's ergonomics and effectiveness will greatly enhance the pursuit of an individual's goal. That's why we do this instead of Hockey or Bridge, and why track-day racers and Sunday cruisers still like to hang out and bullshit about cars.
Guys who want to mag dump at moving targets with the cool 'gun' they like from game/ movie X should be encouraged to buy some private land, some old tomatoes, and a train set.


Edit:
Goddamnit I should learn how to write something other than a wall of text. Jeezus.

Edit 2:
Given energy transfer to target as it affects both damage to players and damage to your facility, there is no reason to use anything but .20s. Also, remember to be extremely vigilant about monitoring mag loading procedures. Especially those using gas guns.
Clients should not, under any circumstances be allowed to load their own magazines outside of your direct supervision and/ or with anything other than the bbs you supply. People can not be trusted; they will abuse any gaps in your loading procedure that you allow through blind trust or negligence.
Heavy bbs will wreck your shit and start fights, cheap, crappy bbs will destroy your rentals prematurely. Your rentals will be destroyed faster than you can comprehend already, adding any circumstance within your control which may hasten that destruction will burn your capital.
On that note, if you plan on renting 20 guns at any given time, buy 80. Your rate of failure, need for swappage, and cross-cannibalization will astound you. As an example, you can expect 3-5 AEGs will die for every 45 minute bachelor party you host. If you don't have a tech (or two) on the line to work part-time from day one, you will cry. You need at least one dedicated tech to be at your business regularly to maintain your guns. Not working your retail component, not running games, just fixing things.
To you, your rentals are your business, and your business is your livelihood. To the public, they are garbage, or at best, not their problem. Remember that.

Last edited by Cliffradical; January 10th, 2014 at 19:16..
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Old January 10th, 2014, 19:59   #32
ThunderCactus
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^ There are really just two ways to maintain the guns and both methods are costly and REALLY suck.

1) Use high quality parts and pay a knowledgeable and established gunsmith to fix them (of which nobody wants to do 12 guns a week lol), so essentially drop $200 (lonex is perfect balance of inexpensive and high enough quality) into each gun plus gunsmith fees. Downside is, every mechbox eventually breaks anyway, noobs can break guns and I mean in half wrecking all the parts, and all noobs continue to shoot when the guns jammed so guranteed stripped pistons.

2) use only stock parts but buy rental guns that are decent enough to be rented out. Downside is now they're stock and guaranteed to break down more often than the upgraded ones, but the parts are probably much cheaper since you probably have a dealer account.

Anyway, total agree 100% with everything above, you can't invest too much in something you know will be broken constantly and mishandled by the most inexperienced people. And you can't spend too little like buying G&G or you'll be going through metal bodies like crazy.
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Old January 10th, 2014, 21:26   #33
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Those are some very valid points Cliff, I appreciate you spending the time for the awesome write-up.

As a side note, we were planning to use a muzzle energy limit, so at close range, the impact energy is pretty close no matter what weight you use. Then again, some people may try to cheat and over-volume, or lie about the bb weight.
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Old January 10th, 2014, 21:27   #34
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Originally Posted by Cliffradical View Post
Also, remember to be extremely vigilant about monitoring mag loading procedures. Especially those using gas guns.
I'm not familiar with gas guns. What do you mean by this?
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Old January 10th, 2014, 21:42   #35
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Gas guns have a higher muzzle energy when people load them with heavier ammo.
A WE PDW (mine) shoots 380fps with a .20 (1.34j), but when loaded with .28s it shoots 350 fps (1.56j), which is over the OLD outdoor limit of 400fps (1.48j)

So if a GBBR chrono's on .20s at 320-350fps, then someone puts .28s in it, it will mostly likely be over the limit.
That's why I recommend every chrono's with the BB weight they'll be using as opposed to .20s
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Old January 10th, 2014, 23:20   #36
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I play in Mb, only outdoors. I tried out xt and it was fun but way too pricey for what it has to offer, might go back this off season if this winter lasts too long! (I like to support local business so I try and pick up parts and supplies from them though). We've got a good group of regulars and a buds land to play on. We build our own forts, towers, etc. We have no fps limits, just common sense when engaging up close with anything high powered. Anyone want to try out a "relaxed" game style, message me for details.
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Old January 10th, 2014, 23:48   #37
ThunderCactus
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It's extremely difficult to get a good balance of size and profitability from an indoor arena
A facility large enough to satisfy milsim players would cost way too much to maintain. That's why all the large facilities we play at; CFB rivers, sask hospitals, etc are generally condemned or abandoned lol
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Old January 10th, 2014, 23:55   #38
Cliffradical
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Yes. The costs associated with such a business are astronomical.
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