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Old November 7th, 2013, 00:57   #16
Brian McIlmoyle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricochet View Post
Very important for an indoor field, size and multi-level. Unless it's a couple if buddies just muckin' around, 10,000 square feet starts to feel like a garage quickly.

Also what Brian said, change it regularly.
I don't agree.. Size is not everything.. Creativity can make up for size.

But you do need enough space so that people are not falling over one another

I run TTAC3 in 4000 square feet.. but usually run no more than 16-20 people.
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Old November 7th, 2013, 01:07   #17
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Originally Posted by Brian McIlmoyle View Post
I don't agree.. Size is not everything.. Creativity can make up for size.

But you do need enough space so that people are not falling over one another

I run TTAC3 in 4000 square feet.. but usually run no more than 16-20 people.
16 - 20 people in 4,000 square feet? Holy smokes! You must be great at space creativity. We had 8 - 10 or so close friends, in 10,000 square feet, and although it was interesting in there with all the buildings, structures, etc, I'd still call it busy.

We played with the lights off, a few red and blue strobes going, smoke, and had heavy metal just racked over the speaker system. It was challenging, and fun for what it was.
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Old November 7th, 2013, 01:41   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricochet View Post
16 - 20 people in 4,000 square feet? Holy smokes! You must be great at space creativity. We had 8 - 10 or so close friends, in 10,000 square feet, and although it was interesting in there with all the buildings, structures, etc, I'd still call it busy.

We played with the lights off, a few red and blue strobes going, smoke, and had heavy metal just racked over the speaker system. It was challenging, and fun for what it was.
That's what you were missing last week, Bryan! There was no fog! Heavy metal would have been nice too, but it would have taken away from the mood. :P

TTAC3 is indeed very small, but that's why I love it. However, it has a very unique way of being set up, with walls and obstacles. I'm pretty sure I've got pictures on my phone I can dig up.

The corridors are usually very short. Engagement distances are very close. You can barely turn a corner without getting shot at.
But when you manage to fight your way up to the next bit of corner 5 feet in front of you, it feels good. When you manage to flank the enemy, you feel accomplished. When you get shot point blank in the hand because you stuck your pistol a few inches past cover, you feel considerable pain.

It's never boring, you're always moving, and it really encourages you to work as a team if you want to gain any ground. And that's fun to me.

I play at another, larger, indoor field, but it's set up differently than TTAC3. There's only a handful of obstacles, the corridors for movement are long, and there isn't a whole lot of cover. When you start getting 20+ players, I find that I do a lot of hanging back, because all the cover that's within an effective engagement range is taken.

Granted, that's a specific playing style too. If I can't "move up a long corridor without getting shot" then I should try find another way around. If there's not enough cover up at the front, I should get more aggressive and make due.

But, it doesn't encourage me to move, and it doesn't encourage me to fight. At TTAC3, even though I might only move up a few feet to the next bit of cover, at least I'm moving. At least I'm constantly fighting, instead of standing around for a few minutes, waiting for cover to open up.

So basically what I'm saying, is that I have a ton of fun in the small field of TTAC3. There's always plenty of cover, lots of movement required, and very rarely any bunch-ups of players behind one particular cover (unless you're stacking up to move around a corner or something). It's not for everybody, and it really makes it seem more like a simulation or a drill, than a game. TTAC3 is just flat walls and corners all around you. It forces you to keep moving and fighting, or else you get run over.

The other field I mentioned has buildings you can enter; multiple levels; vehicles, barrels, and other obstacles; open spaces to run across...That all makes it seem more like a game, and it's what a lot of people prefer. It's got variety, it's a more "realistic" urban setting, and so on. There's nothing wrong with it, but I honestly get more fun out of Bryan's tiny little space.
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Old November 7th, 2013, 08:51   #19
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Thanks for your input!

No particular reason really. He said he wanted to see how many people would prefer to "man up" and take a field gun straight into CQB.

330 fps with .20 happens to be the limit for the local indoor games. It also translates to about 1.0 J, which agrees with this:

http://mackila.com/airsoft/atp/06-a-01.htm
isnt that only for richmond indoor paintball? tbh u can change the limit to what you see fit, 350 seems to be better imo but thats entirely up to you as the owner of the field and whatnot. hope to see it soon!!!


also in terms of space u should check out the cqb sites in HK they have pretty good use of space and whatnot. im sure u can find pictures on google and their websites
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Old November 7th, 2013, 10:57   #20
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That's what you were missing last week, Bryan! There was no fog! .
I'm working on that.. had a high output fog machine.. but it crapped out.. need to get a new one.

But you hit all the points with respect to what we are trying to do at TTAC3,

it is much more of a training environment than a "skirmish arena"

Short focused engagements, Fast turn around to scenarios.

all in a space that puts everyone within range of everyone else.

The best CQB space needs to be small enough that no one is out of range from any spot on the field. This forces people to use cover effectively.

CQB paintball is an excellent setup.. but it is static.. When it first opened the outdoor space we had a great time there for 5 or 6 sessions.. but by then it was all played out. Everyone knew all the choke points and angles.. and every game turned out the same..
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Old November 7th, 2013, 14:59   #21
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Originally Posted by phloudernow View Post
isnt that only for richmond indoor paintball? tbh u can change the limit to what you see fit, 350 seems to be better imo but thats entirely up to you as the owner of the field and whatnot. hope to see it soon!!!


also in terms of space u should check out the cqb sites in HK they have pretty good use of space and whatnot. im sure u can find pictures on google and their websites
You are probably right about the fps limit. Perhaps the question wasn't phrased the best way. It was more of a "do you prefer higher or lower fps" question.

If I had it may way, I would pick 400 fps with no MED.
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Old November 7th, 2013, 15:05   #22
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Originally Posted by KenTsui View Post
You are probably right about the fps limit. Perhaps the question wasn't phrased the best way. It was more of a "do you prefer higher or lower fps" question.

If I had it may way, I would pick 400 fps with no MED.
NO MED is critical for CQB .. otherwise it ends up being a game of "mercy tag"

the reason for higher FPS is moot for indoor play.. there is no wind.. there are no bushes or grass to blast through.

at 400 fps.. you will have a lot of blood .. and not to put too fine a point on it.. there are lots of players who don't like the idea of bleeders let alone the reality.

280- 320 with .20 bbs is perfect for indoor play where very short engagements will happen. even at this FPS.. you still get bleeders
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Old November 7th, 2013, 16:12   #23
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300-sub-350 is more than sufficient for indoor play. Still pretty ouchy at contact-5ft but enough so a longer shot can still be felt/heard.

Setting things to semi-only, ammo limits per mag and no minimum engagement distance really help to both keep things moving along and to head off guys spraying rounds endlessly from static positions. Same with total ammo limits if you've got more space to play with.

Those types of conditions may not appeal to everyone, but give them a try and assess what effect it has on game play.

Floor surface also makes a big impact. BB's on hard flat surfaces make for wicked wipeouts (mandate boots with good treads)...gravel makes for bad slides and road rash...sand gets into everything...dirt (outdoors) turn into mud and icy mud in the winter. Brian's place is kind of lucky in that the cracks in the floor boards is a natural sump for BBs...and even then by the end of some nights it's a virtual carpet of BBs, especially with grenades and 40mm's

Basically figure everything is going to get shot eventually...lights/windows/signage/etc... Can't beat hard cover vs. netting/etc...
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Old November 7th, 2013, 18:16   #24
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Also, helmets, goggles, neck guards, gloves, masks, etc. As far as adults go, it's pretty much "at your own risk" as long as they understand the dangers, but having protective gear available is good. With proper protective gear, you can mitigate the need for lower FPS, within reason of course.
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Old November 7th, 2013, 18:48   #25
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This is a great thread (I did the survey) as I have been thinking/dreaming alot about how great it'd be to open up an Indoor Airsoft place North of the GTA. Someplace in between the GTA and Barrie area where Airsofters from those 2 areas can still make their way to the location and all the smaller communities inbetween can aswell.

I currently drive over an hour to get to Ultimate (when I can get out) and have been looking into TTAC aswell.

I agree that changing up the enviroment would make things better. More marshalling/supervision I believe is required.

I just keep watching the Scoutisthedoogie videos and drooling on myself.
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Old November 7th, 2013, 20:21   #26
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Thank you to everyone who participated. The number of responses is quite impressive!

I might be sharing the findings later on once I think I have received a good number of responses, but so far I'm seeing that almost half of the players like outdoor better and the other half is nearly neutral between indoor and outdoor.

So for those who doesn't prefer one over the other, what is the deciding factor? Weather? Or is it just undecided because you like to change up the environment and play style once in a while?
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Old November 8th, 2013, 16:17   #27
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I like to play indoor because I am often to busy to play during the weekend and indoor facility offer evening sessions. Weather can be a deciding factor. If it is heavy rain/wind in the forecast, I rather stay home.

Many of us will always prefer playing outside because of the terrain, the size of the field, fresh air and the realism. But that doesn't we mean won't go to an indoor place. You and your crew need to figure out a reason why airsofters want to pay money to go to your place. It is all about marketing and giving people what they want. You are selling an experience and memory. You want people to come back again and again. Given the size of Vancouver and the established airsoft facilities, you need to offer something that is not offer by other places.

Also Location would be a big factor for the people in Vancouver. Where is the location that you guys are thinking about??

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Old November 8th, 2013, 16:39   #28
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I would say another good thing to invest would be good ventilation indoors so the air is constantly moving.

Helps prevent fog, stink, stale air
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Old November 8th, 2013, 19:59   #29
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I like to play indoor because I am often to busy to play during the weekend and indoor facility offer evening sessions. Weather can be a deciding factor. If it is heavy rain/wind in the forecast, I rather stay home.

Many of us will always prefer playing outside because of the terrain, the size of the field, fresh air and the realism. But that doesn't we mean won't go to an indoor place. You and your crew need to figure out a reason why airsofters want to pay money to go to your place. It is all about marketing and giving people what they want. You are selling an experience and memory. You want people to come back again and again. Given the size of Vancouver and the established airsoft facilities, you need to offer something that is not offer by other places.

Also Location would be a big factor for the people in Vancouver. Where is the location that you guys are thinking about??
You have some very valid points.

I cannot disclose the location at this time. I don't want to get everyone's hopes up. There's still a lot of work ahead.



Quote:
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I would say another good thing to invest would be good ventilation indoors so the air is constantly moving.

Helps prevent fog, stink, stale air
Another good point. I hate fog! Noted!
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Old January 10th, 2014, 15:56   #30
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One of the important things you mention ia FPS. in a CQB enviorment it really is to nill advantage. In something like TTAC the engagement distance would be so small that 300-400fps wouldnt be an advantage. It's more about injury prevention and sportsmenship.
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