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Old October 24th, 2013, 01:41   #31
ThunderCactus
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I was around since the very beginning, I mean literally I was there when the association fees were paid and I proof read the bylaws myself lol
I always tried to nudge them in the right direction, and make the important point known, with great sorrow my insight was often unheard of overlooked.

It started out well enough, we instilled a democracy based around a set of bylaws (legally written in legal language) that governed the association and how it was to be run, basically touched on code of conduct and due process.
The people who founded the democratic council all left or fell out of airsoft, the new people elected didn't understand how to interpret the bylaws and things were added to the rules and bylaws modified that should never have been modified.
Bylaws were interpreted in a way they were never written.
The general "keystone rule set" made by charlietango was modified for legality (no homemade pyro, at all, ever), and turned into the "MAA rules".

Unfortunately the new electees went about attempting to govern airsoft in Mb as an iron fisted dictator would, and had a "join us, play like us, pay our dues" kind of mentality. There was no room on board for people who wanted to play differently (or with pyro).

You joined the MAA, as an individual or as a group or with a field. You used our rule set, obeyed our bylaws, after a few maa games at your field it would be an MAA field and eligible for funds.

Still it went well for a while, however a number of things led to the eventual collapse of the governing body;
-the wrong people in positions of power
-abuse of power and persons in positions of power ignoring bylaw rules (our pres worked for a sponsor)
-lack of culture, and by that I mean nobody on the council had any ties or acquaintances outside manitoba, and therefore had no insight on how anyone else in Canada has dealt with the problems we were dealing with
-lack of flexibility, the phrase that kept coming back was "why not work with us instead of against us?", but the reality of it was "we're going to argue about this topic until you agree with us"
-lack of a realistic goal or plan. The idea was to unify airsoft in manitoba, the means of which to do so were completely unknown. Nobody on the top level knew why other groups didn't want to join.
-Lack of diplomacy; I actually put forth a position to be an ambassador to outside clubs to find out what others wanted to join, this proposal was more or less scoffed at.
-tight pockets. Despite having money, the association didn't seem to spend it on fields, and once or twice spent a good chunk of cash on things we REALLY didn't need (claymores)
-slow action. Really takes anything for a democracy to get anything accomplished, especially when the higher ups are all volunteers.
-in an attempt to become an official organization, we opted to join the sport Mb association (which really had nothing to do with legitimizing airsoft, it's an association that subsidizes travel costs for vball teams that need to play nationals in Vancouver or some shit), and we made the association "more open". "more open" meaning you no longer had to play airsoft to join....you just needed to be 18+ and have $30 and you could vote on how we played airsoft. And despite being a big hot button topic for 2 years, it turned out that ZERO effort was ever actually put into joining sport Mb....like none...pres gave them a call, they sent some documents, and nothing was ever done beyond that for TWO YEARS.
-Very inwardly focused, ultimately we spent way too much time trying to solve internal problems that were never going to go away and didn't spend enough time helping AIRSOFT as a community.
And then finally it degenerated into people that had no business being in leadership roles making silly rules that did nothing but make airsoft more complicated and added paperwork (safety committee, the chrono registry, forcing chrono before every game, scrim fees collected by the maa instead of the field) and basically just chairsofters dictating rules to the people who actually ran and played at games.

The minority of members who actually played regularly, had fields, and organized games finally demanded change. The majority members that saw us as rabble and usurpers played us down or moderated us. So we left, with the only two regular fields they knew of in Mb (there's on 2 regular at the time but more than 16 playable fields, but I don't think they knew that at the time), all the game organizers, and the regular player base.
Those people who were only on the board to chat in an internet forum seem to have gone away, and those of the majority members that still played ended up having to play 2 hours away in brandon since we were the only people they knew that hosted games locally, and they didn't like us lol
They made promises of changing the boards and re-facing the MAA to something more like ASM (if anyone knows the diff), and finally becoming what the MAA was actually supposed to be. But at that point the name had been soiled far too badly, the people in power could no longer be trusted, and they really had nothing to offer other than a forum and a lot of bad memories. Those of us that had already left knew from past precedence that no changes would ever be implemented....and they still haven't been to date lol
Some other shit happened in between the lines, but it doesn't need to be repeated here. Anyway the bottom line is the democractic council was a horrible failure in just about every way it could have failed.

Since then, airsoft in manitoba has THRIVED under a few dictatorships.
As long as the right person is in charge, progress is made VERY quickly.
Would have taken the MAA at least a decade just to build eddie creek up to what it is, let alone purchasing any land.

In an actual government, you WANT leadership change because it forces a leader to either implement change quickly, or not have time to do anything.
In airsoft, things get done very fast because they're all little things, so constant change of leadership ended up being very very bad.

Basically what we learned is we need to force leadership upon those who are good at it, instead of voted in people who WANT to do it.
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i never understood why the oil refinery had a brothel... i never see them at the refineries i work at this is bull!

Last edited by ThunderCactus; October 24th, 2013 at 01:50..
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Old October 24th, 2013, 01:51   #32
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not to say airsoft government is impossible, but democracy just isn't great for getting shit done.
As the great macguyver has on his signature
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what's for dinner.
Or as it was in Mb, two sheep and a wolf deciding what's for dinner.


Adding on, ASC really is great system.
Admins and game organizers from around canada can chat or bang heads lol
There's no excuse for culturing though, I've played across the prairies and know every big name, we get a lot of great ideas together, sort out eachother's problems (because believe it or not, every group seems to have the EXACT same problems in growth), and we've managed to more or less standardize general airsoft rules across the praires, while still being open minded and accepting of the groups who want to play other styles of airsoft like speedball or hardball
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Originally Posted by swatt13 View Post
i never understood why the oil refinery had a brothel... i never see them at the refineries i work at this is bull!

Last edited by ThunderCactus; October 24th, 2013 at 02:06..
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Old October 24th, 2013, 07:50   #33
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Self policing if possible is always best. We don't need a regulating body.
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Old October 24th, 2013, 11:36   #34
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More often than not regulating bodies end up being more about control than service. They may start out right minded, but eventually fall to corruption.

In a community such as this, influence is more valuable than control. If you take the long view communities can be nudged in the direction desired and transformed over time to the desired conditions.

it's very hard to impose control over persons who retain the fuck you veto.

Even within the southern Ontario airsoft community there are many and divers circles of players that have radically different approaches to the activity. Binding these groups together under one regulatory regime would be impossible. Frankly it would not be desired as often the circles are at odds with one another with respect to their approach to the activity.

It is the differences that are valued as every player can find their way to the circle that best suits them and what they want out of the activity.

in the end we can in fact all get along and have some great fun where the circles overlap.
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Old October 24th, 2013, 13:25   #35
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If you like we can run an election here too. Like most elections we will have 20% of the members vote the admins will trade places and the AV will still take too long. The Infractions will be handed out the same and aholes will make stupid posts that are more popular than productive ones.
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Old October 24th, 2013, 14:46   #36
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Originally Posted by Armyissue View Post
If you like we can run an election here too. Like most elections we will have 20% of the members vote the admins will trade places and the AV will still take too long. The Infractions will be handed out the same and aholes will make stupid posts that are more popular than productive ones.
I can't help but feel there is an underlying message to what your saying....????....!
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Old October 24th, 2013, 15:30   #37
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I wasn't trying to be an ahole.
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Old October 24th, 2013, 17:31   #38
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Oh, we know. No one is trying to come down on you (or they shouldn't), it's just that some of us have been left with a bitter taste in our mouths due to our experiences.

I have had the fortune to have remained utterly neutral and fairly unknown, so issues with organizations of one kind or another have been bizarre and inconvenient to me at worst. I was just always sort of flabbergasted by the (to me) obvious short-sightedness of all parties involved because I had played with everybody independently and had a great time/ met good people on all occasions.

Different people enjoy/ need different levels of structure. Some people absolutely love clubs and rituals surrounding their BBQs and beers (Masons), some people think a back yard and an old t-shirt is fine thanks (me). Trying to force all Grillmasters to live under a strict 'Slobs Only' code of conduct would be ridiculous and arrogant of me. Likewise, having a Masonic order require my membership before my brisket can be seen as legitimate before the grilling community would be equally dumb.
"Lets all just eat the damned meats and trade recipes, I'll follow your lead at your house, please respect my rules at mine." is pretty much where the majority of active players are at now.

It's ordered chaos but considering we're the jocks of hard-core nerds and we do MIL-LARP it's probably the best we can hope for.

Edit: I got all inspired and made this handy diagram as a visual aid:


Last edited by Cliffradical; October 24th, 2013 at 18:23..
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Old October 24th, 2013, 22:43   #39
ThunderCactus
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Not saying it wouldn't ever work, but when you look at the ratio of people who are actually skilled leaders, versus the amount of people that are NOT skilled leaders, versus the amount of people that just want to be in a position of power, it's just not a good idea to provide the opportunity.

What we have right now works, and let's just leave it at that lol
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i never understood why the oil refinery had a brothel... i never see them at the refineries i work at this is bull!
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Old October 24th, 2013, 23:04   #40
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Originally Posted by Cliffradical View Post
Edit: I got all inspired and made this handy diagram as a visual aid:

Walt Disney had the same idea as you years and years ago, and that is how Mickey Mouse was born.
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Old October 25th, 2013, 15:59   #41
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I see what you did there...
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Old October 25th, 2013, 17:45   #42
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Deltastone's Easy-Peasy Guide to Why UKARA is Stupid:

1) To be able to buy Airsoft guns you must play a minimum of three games at a registered facility / field

2) To be able to play three Airsoft games you must already have an Airsoft gun

Automatic built in catch-22. Stupid.
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Old October 25th, 2013, 18:00   #43
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In the UK there are tons of sites totally based around hire guns. To hear some players tell their side there are too many of those and too few sites meant for more serious players.

You could very much paint the UKARA in the same light as our age verification. It was an initiative put forward to self police the hobby.

And just like age verification the same type of person objects to playing 3 games to gain access to the next tier up. "I've just discovered airsoft and I must have guns right now. Please note I am coincidentally far to busy to attend games. I just want the stuff now."

And just like over here the typical response is baby gets nothing. In fact the players in the UK are much more militant than here. What they have is an exemption from the law. That can be erased with a stroke of a pen if the government decides to score some easy points with the curtain twitchers.
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Old October 25th, 2013, 18:30   #44
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Government is cheap, if this issue hit them I can PROMISE you it's cheaper for them to all out ban, than try something like this.

Not even worth thinking about.
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Old October 25th, 2013, 19:02   #45
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Please elect me to be your Airsoft Prime minister. GBBR 2013! V-V-V-VOTE NOW
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