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What is your true definition of "Milsim"

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Old October 9th, 2013, 01:49   #16
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Some interesting comments. From what I gather from most folks the definition of Milsim has slipped over the years with the senior players/planners thinking something different then what is actually being offered up these days.
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Old October 9th, 2013, 03:46   #17
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I think what has happened in many cases, is the general progression and mutation of airsoft naturally. Thunder Cactus really touched on this in his post. Airsoft is a game, and/or a series of games that have been adapted into many personalized tangents, i.e. Milsim, reenactment, speedball, role play, etc. For most players, modern military scenario is the best and by far the most dynamic way to play. What the hardcore gamers have run into, is that unless your doing strict training ops, then not everything translates over well from military into airsoft. I like to think that the more mainstream style of play is slowly making it's way into a more concrete fashion, somewhere between a progressive sport and military simulation. As a player, the military aspect is paramount as the base framework for any game. You can use this effectively in communication, objectives, storyline, tactics, etc to maximize the experience. The flip side however is this; I play myself as an airsofter, and at no time do I think or portrays soldier. I'm here for the competition, and extreme sport aspect, not to drill and train for an eventual nothing. I know my enemy will return once I shoot him out, I know my gun can miss at fifty feet even when pointed straight, and not all military tactics will work against an opponent that doesn't have to worry about death or dismemberment; and therefore my battleplan must take into account all of these things.

Run real caps, leave bodies where they fall, no re-spawn reinforcements, strict objectives and timeline; that would be closer to military simulation.

In essence, it really comes down to the balance between the two aspects, and how it adapts over time. You want the realism, and you need the fun factor.
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Old October 9th, 2013, 10:50   #18
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The team I play on, the South Manitoba Rifles, strives for an equal balance between "mil-sim styled airsoft" and "military re-enactment". We believe those two components, in proper balance, make a compelling mix.

We participate annually in Operation East Wind, where a third element, "military vehicle collectors" gets added to the mix. You've never really experienced mil-sim until you've ridden into battle in the back of an APC or faced off against a real ex-Soviet BTR!

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Old October 9th, 2013, 11:09   #19
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Indeed... the key is to not invite skirmishers to your Milsim

Far far too often quality of experience is sold out to quantity.

Everyone wants " big games" but to get big games you have to open the game up to the public and take all comers.

you can't expect the mouth breathers and Kraken toting mag ticklers to give up their "fun" and engage in actions that require more refinement than fast twitching on a trigger just because you want them to.

Lots of games that have had good potential get screwed up because the wrong people showed up and decided to play the game they always play, regardless of what you have planned.
Could not have put it better myself.
Quantity =/= quality
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Old October 9th, 2013, 11:30   #20
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I'm fairly new into Airsoft, been at it for 2 years. I only went to one; I guess it was an OP. The zombie game at PRZ. I was actually expecting a full night of gaming out in the field, I planned ahead with packing food and water on me because I was under the impression we wouldn't be going back to a safe point/car.

I guess my definition or explanation of a milsim is a whole event played in one go with realistic goals and objectives, and realistic consequences. Something that makes you fear/question your actions. I personally like to role play and such (D&D) so I try to really put my mind into it, those plastic BBs are bullets, I can not act recklessly, be a lone wolf and such. Also I like the idea of a close small operating group, we're like brothers (and sisters if applicable) and we cover our asses, and just try to put the feels in protecting each other because no one wants to "die". So I guess this is what I expected from milsim, and even though I have yet to go out to possibly a "real" milsim, it is what I'm hoping to get from the experience. Just my two cents on what I kind of thought/expected from my first Milsim once I choose one.
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Old October 9th, 2013, 11:35   #21
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I loved the big milsims, but sadly with the team that is not mentioned pulling back from the scene, there isnt much going on. We still run small <40 player milsims, but it's still not the same. I miss my pack
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Old October 9th, 2013, 11:37   #22
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Originally Posted by Ricochet View Post
In essence, it really comes down to the balance between the two aspects, and how it adapts over time. You want the realism, and you need the fun factor.

"fun" means different things to different people... the key is to collect all the right people together and provide that group with their idea of fun.

I had 16 guys at TTAC3 all last weekend for a 2 day CQB training course.. force on force was the last 2 hours of 16 hours of training. there was 14 hours of dry runs, drills, and shooting paper.. There are not very many people that want this kind of experience,and fewer still who will pay for it, but those that do want as much of it as they can get.

Serious players, wanting to learn serious skills.. so that they can dominate regular players in all situations and circumstances.

I have guys who have been investing in training for years, these same people have committed to transforming their bodies and making investments in fitness, specifically to improve their performance and ability in the field. they have invested thousands in the best equipment, and tools to hone their competitive advantage to a keen edge. They systematically knock down barriers to peak performance.

The mind set of these players is distinctly different from most, they play hard, they play to win, they tolerate discomfort, they are aggressive, and unapologetic about it. And more and more, dissatisfied with the opposition they face at public games. Their idea of what is fun is quite different than your typical "Saturday afternoon operator" Often they are accused of cheating, or "bad sportsmanship" by those that are swept aside by them, but the fact is.. they are just that much better, physically, technically and mentally, not because they are somehow, "Superior" but because they have bought and paid for the training, and practice and equipment necessary to get good at the game.

Challenging players like this is not easy from a game host standpoint. maintaining game balance when you mix in all levels of players can be a nightmare of compromise.. often ending up with everyone mildly pissed off.

The fact is a new player, with half a season under their belt has no business being on the same field with such players, That new player is just finding their feet, and figuring out how to play, what works what does not, how to get things done, and what they find fun. Getting slaughtered at every turn can be a real damper to their fun, and it's not much of a challenge to well trained , equipped and motivated players to deal with. putting the two together serves as a disincentive to participation for both.

This is the perennial challenge for game organizers, how do you create an environment where all levels and types of players can get what they want and need from your games. In some cases, it can't be done, and certain games are for certain players and the non focus group has to be excluded.

new players can always benefit from the presence of experienced players, obviously, But the reverse is not always true. This is often why we see long time , and experienced players withdraw from the wider community to enclaves of specialized focus, such as more "reenactment" type activities where new challenges can be met with those assured of being of like mind.
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Old October 9th, 2013, 16:41   #23
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Well since East Wind was brought up here I figure I’ll hop in and say a few words since I am the guy who came up with East Wind.

Brian basically nailed it, the big thing with “serious” Milsim has more to do with providing an outlet for guys who are looking for more than what is available in the basic weekend game or “normal” OP.

Some examples:


Depth of experience
By the time attendees get to the point where they are interested in serious milsim events they have all had their airsoft weapons for a while and have gotten to the point where shooting them is not really the number one goal at an event. They are looking for a chance to put into use some of the other skills they have picked up in an environment where it actually matters.

Non-milsim example: You get told “go take hill 123” and haul butt off to do it quickly since it’s the start of the game and you know that right now there is a guy just like you but with a tan hat being told “go take hill 123”

Milsim example: You sit in on the Company opord so you can hear your piece of the puzzle then figure out how you need to accomplish your part of it. You KNOW why hill 123 needs to be taken, you know what happens if you fail, you know what success looks like, and you have a personal investment in the outcome.

Less focus on balance
Contrary to what most people (who have not attended reenactment style milsim events) might say, there is a LOT less scripting generally going on and equally as important there is a lot less interest in “making it fun”. This means that you are actually free to completely succeed at your mission without having to worry about game balance.

Non-milsim example: You have your act together, your enemy does not. You manage to slip into a key spot and are really making a nuisance of yourselves inflicting horrid casualties and totally disrupting enemy operations. So the admins kill your team with an “air strike”. He’s not being a jerk, he needs to keep the game balances out so that everyone is having fun. Sad fact is, to people who are not very good at our sport getting pantsed is not regarded as having fun.

Milsim example: You made a mistake and now you are paying for it in spades. The enemy has almost all of their objectives, your forces are in disarray but you have a plan to turn the tables. Since the admins are not going to hand you an even playing field on a silver platter, when you turn the tables on the enemy, it will be your success and you’ll walk away with your heads held high. If you fail, then you’ll know it and will come back next time prepared to do better.

Less focus on attrition, more focus on leadership and management
Ever been to a game where you shoot the fat kid with the Multicam boonie cap then 10 minutes later you shoot the fat kid with the Multicam boonie cap then 10 minutes later you shoot the fat kid with the Multicam boonie cap then 10 minutes later he finally gets you? Does it matter that you had your act together? Does it matter that you took your objective quickly with minimal losses and dug in fast and well? Does it matter that you have interlocking fields of fire, good comms, claymores in place and a plan? Not if the enemy’s respawn point is 200 meters away and they have an endless supply of fat kids with Multicam boonie caps…

Non-milsim example: Look at any event map, the closer you get to the enemies spawn points, the shorter your stay time… Simple as that. It’s part of the game. (for better or worse)

Milsim example: In 6 years of East Wind events, we have never had a full time player able to spawn back into the same gun battle. You deal a telling blow to the enemy and they will feel every bit of it

Consequences for your actions
Players like to pull off something that has serious ramifications that ACTUALLY have a tangible effect on both the event and their quality of life as well.

Non-milsim example “You must deliver these barrels to point X” Why? So your team gets points and can win etc. You do it, you get some satisfaction from it etc but it’s not quite the same thing as…

Milsim example: At East Wind 5 a contingent of Canadian Forces troops spent an entire night working from place to place behind enemy lines planting seismic intrusion devices that for the next 5 days sent out radio signals alerting NATO of every single Warpac patrol transiting their own rear areas.

[b]Ability to use specialized equipment, ability to NEED specialized equipment.
Ever been shopping for goodies and seen that one really cool thing that you’d just love to have but in all reality, you’ll never get to use it…

Non-milsim example: You spend the better part of 2 months building a super nice mortar out of steel in your shop. Weigh is right, balance is right, it comes apart into 3 pieces and can be manpacked, you have a working T&E, you have marker posts, you can do legit indirect fire (albeit short ranged) etc. Then… Well what then? It’s cool as the other side of the pillow but it not that useful at a normal event, at an “OP” it will just be another 80 pounds of something for your team to deal with so at best it becomes a prop.

Milsim example: You know the feeling you get when you hear a armored vehicle bearing down on your unit that has no anti-armor weapon so you spend months creating an answer to that problem knowing that next time you are in that spot it’s the other guy who’s going to have a reason to worry.


Anyhow, I’ll cut this off here rather than drowning everyone in text…
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Old October 9th, 2013, 17:45   #24
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Anyhow, Iíll cut this off here rather than drowning everyone in TRUTHÖ
there fixed it for you
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Old October 9th, 2013, 17:56   #25
Jamroxorz
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Well Aswayze pretty much summed up what I'd expect from a "Milsim". Sounds amazing.
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Old October 9th, 2013, 18:10   #26
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Old October 9th, 2013, 18:19   #27
Brian McIlmoyle
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Originally Posted by Jamroxorz View Post
Well Aswayze pretty much summed up what I'd expect from a "Milsim". Sounds amazing.
but you don't have to go to a "big game in the USA" to get it

you don't need hundreds of people and armoured vehicles to get the same feelings and experiences.

EASTWIND is a great example of what MILSIM can be ..


but it can also be much smaller.. and more focused.

Over the past year I have been involved in several small scale operations that included intelligence aspects, that defined mission parameters. through analysis of intelligence we defined a target and a date, and a scope of operation.. on that date and location we deployed a specially trained unit with specific ROE and objectives.. between initial warning order, intelligence gathering and mission profile development and unit selection and training these operations took an average of 3 months to complete. The actual operations were often concluded within about 1.5 hours ( some less , like 40 minutes ) the shooting part was just the culmination of the intelligence gathering, preparation and Training.

These were 1 life operations, no respawn, if you are hit you are dead for the operation. When you do things like this, you get a quality of experience that is unmatched in any other event.

One of the operations we did was surveillance and intelligence interception in an urban environment.. no shots were fired.. but it was still a very stimulating MILSIM
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Old October 9th, 2013, 18:43   #28
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Like Brian said, fun means different things to different people.
I always say we can't bash paintballers and speedballers for doing their thing, because they and real steel shooters alike bash us for doing what we do lol

Like Lindz, I'm in this for the challenge and competition. And as he said, it's not that we purposely portray soldiers, or want to be pretend war fighters, but the best way to organize ourselves and train in our sport just happens to be extremely similar to real military stuff.
Our hardware emulates theirs, and so the tactics and training are naturally also very similar. The whole basis of airsoft really is to emulate real world counterparts, otherwise we'd all have fantasy guns. The line is really determined with the individual, whether you couldn't make it in the military so you do this, or you want something a bit more serious than paintball, or you see it as a sport.
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Old October 9th, 2013, 21:28   #29
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The term Milsim, to me, is tossed around like a bag of potatoes and is truly sad for those who are actually trying to put on real milsim games.

After all, how many games have been posted that said:

  • 18-24 hour game
  • rain or shine
  • 300 people
  • camping night before
  • Serious guys only, but will accept non serious if you pay in advance and try hard
  • "be prepared guys...ok...don't forget your rain coat and flashlight", and turn your roger beep off.


Bam.

Milsim

Really? What exactly is the difference? One storyline is the fall of a government, and another is an uprising of the xxx forces?


Again, I have huge respect for the hard core guys that do this and play games geared only to these people. But when I read AAR's of these games, and can pick off guys who have come to my field and know cant last 4 hours- its a bit of a stretch to wonder how 18-24 hours goes.


The goal needs to be clarified, and often it goes back to making the numbers vs offering the experience as described.

Numbers is often the root cause of the problem. It should not be the goal but the outcome.

I really believe if Milsim games were posted that absolutely did not allow newbs and filtered the players severely, the games would be at the next level.

It does take some balls to do this, but the end game might wind up pulling the hard core guys all to the same game.

I can assure you, in this situation, you would not have guys wondering off to the cars for 2AM beer-in battle.

And if you think this is out of line, think of all the milsim games played/posted in the past 2 years and re do them with only the guys that "should" have been at the game.

Imagine the outcome.
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Old October 9th, 2013, 21:41   #30
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Originally Posted by Brian McIlmoyle View Post

but it can also be much smaller.. and more focused.

Over the past year I have been involved in several small scale operations that included intelligence aspects, that defined mission parameters. through analysis of intelligence we defined a target and a date, and a scope of operation.. on that date and location we deployed a specially trained unit with specific ROE and objectives.. between initial warning order, intelligence gathering and mission profile development and unit selection and training these operations took an average of 3 months to complete. The actual operations were often concluded within about 1.5 hours ( some less , like 40 minutes ) the shooting part was just the culmination of the intelligence gathering, preparation and Training.

These were 1 life operations, no respawn, if you are hit you are dead for the operation. When you do things like this, you get a quality of experience that is unmatched in any other event.

One of the operations we did was surveillance and intelligence interception in an urban environment.. no shots were fired.. but it was still a very stimulating MILSIM
exactly!
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