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What is your true definition of "Milsim"

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Old October 8th, 2013, 18:03   #1
Gish
 
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What is your true definition of "Milsim"

Hey all,
Recently a group of us returned from a Blacksheep game Op: Guernsey pretty disappointed from the game. Lots of weather issues, etc so there was delays, issues, etc.

The issue we came up with though is the definition of "Milsim" it seems that Milsim involves lots of delays, game pauses for resets, more or less a giant Skirmish game of "take X, Defend Y, on no X is taken go get it" No rhyme or reason why.

So i'd like to ask what is the general opinion of Milsim or perhaps my views on it are different and my expectations are unreasonable? As a backstory i've been playing for 13 years, have attended dozens of 24 hour games, and host very successful milsim games here in Calgary.

In my mind this is what Milsim should be.
1. Constant gameplay. No not slinging BB's at each other for the entire time, but the game is always going no matter what. No pauses to bring the cars in, no pauses for a reset. No going back to your car to get your gear/bbs/batteries/etc.
2. Possibility of downtime. I don't mind resting and chatting with the squad. I don't need to always be on field. I don't expect 100% time of bb slinging.
3. Some sort of backstory. You are X force trying to take Y land for Z reason. At least some level like that.
4. Missions with an actual objective. Go and capture X objective and capture Y object within that area. Perhaps it's an actual intel piece that leads to a new mission. Again no capturing of X objective with no reason.

So i'd like to put it out to the crowd is this an unreasonable expectation? Should I lower my expectation at games that I personally don't plan?
I'd love to see the opinions of folks from across the country and even internationally.
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Old October 8th, 2013, 19:03   #2
ThunderCactus
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We as airsofters throw it around really loosely.
In strict definition, none of us milsim. In fact, most of us look down upon milsim players.

(that team from mb which dare not be named) is milsim. They do 100% militarized ops, and airsoft is just a prop. They don't play airsoft, they play pretend war, and they do it within very strict guidelines.

What we refer to as milsim, is just staying as realistic as possible, within certain reasonable confines, yet maintaining the fun and atmosphere of airsoft.

Strict milsim is not fun for 95% of airsofters lol

The big thing for typical airsoft milsim is looking good, and having constant gameplay.
Milsim for us is 24 hour games with little or no rest period, no resets, dynamic gameplay, and usually some good tactics and actual planning thrown in. And realistic objectives, take and hold ground, rescue some dude, disarm a bomb.

Our general idea of milsim, is battlefield or COD but people actually go out when you shoot them lol
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Old October 8th, 2013, 19:08   #3
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I started playing in late 2006, first full year was 2007, and up until, about 2010, MILSIM was something entirely different than what it is today.
When i started, there where 3 types of games, scrims, OPs, and MILSIMS

Scrims: not much need to explain this one, quick pickup games with basic rules and limited objectives. one person usually takes charge on game day.

OPs: More planned out than a scrim; had set (usually multiple) objectives, teams you had to preregister for, team leaders, at least a loose back story. Game is run by an individual or group, and are set organizers, and often act as admins for the game. these games often have a "safe zone" usually a spawn area, to store gear, eat food ect. game lengths would vary, 4-12hrs

MILSIMS: Basically an extremely in depth OP. on top of what OPs had, they often had proper chain of command, radio procedures, teams are better organized into squads and given different taskings. solid back story and evolving mission objectives. these games could go on for multiple days (in MB for a while there used to be a 7 day sniper hunt game run about once a year) there was NO safe zone to eat or sleep, going back to your car was not permitted, if you needed it, it damn well better be on the field.

Right around 2009-2010 (at least in MB) the hardcore MILSIM games dried out, there where still a couple, but usually only a select group would play and games were not posted to the public. what ended up happening is, new people started running "MILSIMS" that where actually OPs, and the term "Milsim" was dumbed down. I know lots of people who considered Claybank a MILSIM, when it was actually an OP (a big OP but still an OP)
I know there are still people running true oldschool style milsims, but i find they very rarely get posted, they are just shared between guys who play them nearly exclusively.


so the tl;dnr....
the term MILSIM no longer means what it did 6-7 years ago, it has been dumbed down to basically be on par with well run OP.
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Last edited by theshaneler; October 8th, 2013 at 19:28..
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Old October 8th, 2013, 19:25   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theshaneler View Post

MILSIMS: Basically a extremely in depth OP. on top of what OPs had, they often had proper chain of command, radio procedures, teams are better organized into squads and given different taskings. solid back story and evolving mission objectives. these games could go on for multiple days (in MB for a while there used to be a 7 day sniper hunt game run about once a year) there was NO safe zone to eat or sleep, going back to your car was not permitted, if you needed it, it damn well better be on the field.
This is what I like. I enjoy being pushed physically and mentally and that's something that I would enjoy

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Old October 8th, 2013, 19:28   #5
Brian McIlmoyle
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Gish,

now you gone and done it...

cracked open ASC debate number 21-b

What is Milsim..

Military Simulation.

mil·i·tar·y
/ˈmiləˌterē/
Adjective
Of, relating to, or characteristic of soldiers or armed forces: "both leaders condemned the buildup of military activity".
Noun
The armed forces of a country.
Synonyms
adjective. martial - warlike - soldierly
noun. army - armed forces - troops

sim·u·la·tion (smy-lshn)
n.
1. The act or process of simulating.
2. An imitation; a sham.
3. Assumption of a false appearance.
4.
a. Imitation or representation, as of a potential situation or in experimental testing.
b. Representation of the operation or features of one process or system through the use of another: computer simulation of an in-flight emergency.


MILSIM

The act or process of simulating relating to, or characteristic of soldiers or armed forces in action.


IN my opinion much that is billed as MILSIM is not, and I have been serially disappointed with most events that I have attended as a participant. To the point that I have pretty much withdrawn from the wider community and focused my attention on WWII reenactment events. This is where "real Milsim" is happening.

Things like Running wire for communications, Digging in and building defences for an attack that may not come. Encamping in the field, Rehearsing operations and conducting ongoing training in the field. Employing formations, commands and procedures according to a national doctrine. Building units with the appropriate mix of weapons and equipment and deploying them as they would have been. Feeding troops in the field. Adhering to operational timings, Navigating terrain, and reporting to superiors.

Real objectives, and commanders who can plan operations sequentially to achieve those objectives. and units that concede to be commanded.

Essentially behaving a doing those things that soldiers do in a combat zone.

What you are looking for is "a day in the life" of a small unit of both sides of a conflict.. and then bringing those two sides together through providing a combative context.. give them a reason to fight.

Since I got involved in the WWII community my satisfaction with my military simulation experiences has rebounded and redoubled.. I'm not looking back.


Military Simulation is not.. Green VS tan .. body count slugfests, it is not 'FRAGOS" with no purpose, it is not flipping flags, or snatching "nukes"
it is not taking and holding ground that has no tactical or strategic relevance.
It is not searching the forest for baskets of Easter eggs to trade in for "points" that no one cares about.

it is not a live action video game, composed of endless firefights against respawning hordes of lone wolf attackers who have no sense of self preservation.
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Old October 8th, 2013, 19:37   #6
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http://www.operationeastwind.com/

The only Milsim Airsoft gameI know of.
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Old October 8th, 2013, 20:25   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grudge View Post
http://www.operationeastwind.com/

The only Milsim Airsoft gameI know of.

I would hardly call that a "airsoft game"
it is historical reenactment employing airsoft guns a weapon simulators

Exactly the same thing as the various WWII reenactments that happen every year around here ..

Milsim is common, just not in the "mainstream" airsoft community.
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Old October 8th, 2013, 20:35   #8
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Milsim to me gish is objectives. As you know with me, I enjoy the scavenger hunts.
But you need to knock out this to get to that, which gets you this.
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Old October 8th, 2013, 21:37   #9
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Milsim. If you're not cold, tired & sore by the end of it; or haven't thought at least once of shooting yourself in the foot out of boredom, you're doing it wrong.
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Old October 8th, 2013, 23:56   #10
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The term "milsim" varies so much, depending on which groups you ask, that I've stopped using it for my projects.

For some it encompasses a lot of aspects of reenactment, accurate gear, etc; for others it's the scenarios/missions, having a chain of command; for others yet it's real cap loadouts and a specific mindset and operating under "realistic conditions" (there's another can of worms), etc etc etc ad nausium.

Globally, in its simplest definition, it should be about an event which reasonably resembles the conditions associated with a real military operation. And most importantly, participants should espouse a sufficient temporary suspension of disbelief to fully immerse themselves in the experience -- not least of which would be treating the risk of being shot by a plastic BB as if it were a real bullet.

But that's pretty (extraordinary) broad, which leads to the confusion/varying definitions.
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Old October 9th, 2013, 00:09   #11
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I'm not adding to what the definition of Milsim is but of what I find important(my experience/opinion). It doesn't matter to me if its real cap, or if the uniforms and loadouts are perfect (though it would be cool if they were), what matters is that the objectives are understandible and simple enough to follow, and that the people you play against dont cheat and follow the rules. To me it's not about 100% accuracy(because you have to have everyone on board to accomplish that) it's about enjoying it. I don't care about winning as long as I knew what we were trying to do/accomplish and I tried my hardest. If the other team beat me fare and square without cheating, I'm just as happy as if I had won. Long story short, I think true Milsim is awesome, but not the most important thing.
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Old October 9th, 2013, 00:33   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian McIlmoyle View Post
Real objectives, and commanders who can plan operations sequentially to achieve those objectives. and units that concede to be commanded.

Essentially behaving a doing those things that soldiers do in a combat zone.

What you are looking for is "a day in the life" of a small unit of both sides of a conflict.. and then bringing those two sides together through providing a combative context.. give them a reason to fight.
I like your semantics approche to answering the question (which we all know comes back at least once a year on this forum) and I share your point of view.

But I wonder what's the people's opinion on having this concept on a variable scale in the same airsoft event. My idea is that one group of players might be simulating regular/professionnal military roles while another group, probably the opposing players, might be simulating (or playing the part of) miltias/rebels/civilians and or terrorists which would, I suppose, require less involvement, uniform impression, dedication, rules of engagement. This is probably most suitable for modern airsoft than historical airsoft whereas both sides were trained soldiers following strict chain of commands.
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Old October 9th, 2013, 01:18   #13
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Variable scale at the same event fails.. if you don't have everyone on the same page and fully engaged you don't have Milsim.

most of the world's conflicts today are between "regular" and "irregular" forces

I've been running a milsim of this type for .. 6 years running at this point in the DEADFALL series.

DEADFALL 2014 is coming up at the end of the month.. it is my idea of Milsim, with a story line that is now approaching 7 years in development.
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Old October 9th, 2013, 01:19   #14
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That scenario happens all the time.

It's harder to pull off than a strict milsim. The less disciplined insurgent force with less commitment gets you exactly that. The lack of commitment and disciple results in frustration for the more committed players as their opposition dog fucks the day away.
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Old October 9th, 2013, 01:33   #15
Brian McIlmoyle
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Indeed... the key is to not invite skirmishers to your Milsim

Far far too often quality of experience is sold out to quantity.

Everyone wants " big games" but to get big games you have to open the game up to the public and take all comers.

you can't expect the mouth breathers and Kraken toting mag ticklers to give up their "fun" and engage in actions that require more refinement than fast twitching on a trigger just because you want them to.

Lots of games that have had good potential get screwed up because the wrong people showed up and decided to play the game they always play, regardless of what you have planned.
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