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Old August 13th, 2013, 17:21   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Azathoth View Post
I don't understand what the deal with parts from Japan is. I have had zero issue in getting parts direct from the factory (and I am not a wholesaler, dealer, retailer, distributor or have any relationship with systema).

I've put in three part orders in the past 5 months, and had delivery within 2-3 weeks. I don't understand what the hoopla is with getting support from the factory that people are talking about.

I have a gripe with the 2.5 motor. It gets very hot under 9.6v NiCD and struggles to pull a stock systema blue cylinder when the battery is at 75% of charge. Same battery at 75% charge in a stock 490 cycles the gun cleaner and it doesn't heat up the motor. At about 50% charge 9.6NiCD the FCC 2.5 cannot cycle the M110 at all, however a 490 can continue to cycle the gun for another 200-300 rounds.

Observed with two different 08 factory guns now, with factory electronics with three different FCC 2.5 motors.

This tells me wither the 2.5 pinion gear is not meshing properly with the bevel gear ; or something is terribly wrong with the motor.
Lol you must one of teh few purist left that still use nicads for PTW all the heat issue and other problem is os one of teh reason that they develop the 3.0 motor, they have tested it with different powered LiPo from 7.4 to 16V with no issue or heat up so far there has been 8 different prototype from design to actual production batch, the videos of the bench test was done with the production batch

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderCactus View Post
I have not had any specific issues with my FCC 2.5 motor as of yet, but I'll be monitoring it closely next year.
But as Brad said, for the love of god change those brush hood screws to plastic!!!
And you don't have to go purely on Brad's word for that one. Systema and some others have tried using metal screws on AEG motor before, and those are the motors that give us the most problems.

Also, I don't like the new motors construction, I don't trust that in the slightest. All screws holding a motor together need to be mounted axially. It's been that way for decades, and there's a good damn reason for it. I understand and respect that FCC is trying to re-invent the wheel here, but some things are just terrible ideas and that right there is one of them.
Are the threads on the housing roll formed or cut?
I guarantee those threads aren't tight tolerance and those are just regular socket head screws. There's natural slack in all threads to begin with, and if by some chance someone under torques or goes over yield strength on a screw, that motors gonna come loose and burn out your bearings really fast, and it doesn't take much misalignment to kill a bearing at 25000rpm
these motors was tested at 34000 RPM (see the video) with no issue, the plastic screw was originally used in one of the prototype but it failed that is why they went back to metal and so far out of the eight prototype there has been 0 failure with the exception of the one that uses plastic screws, all along the eight prototype they also tested different cores to rectify the heat issue, I have one of the prototype motor in my gun. Now the core in my is not the finished production core but it ran at 32000rpm with no heat buildup compared to the 2.5 the difference is almost night and day.

The 3.0 motor is not the be all and end all of motors there a few more in development but so far these are the motors that gives the best stability for mass market production, if future there will be more coming out of FCC in terms of new product and stronger presence in for the TW segment.
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Old August 13th, 2013, 17:38   #92
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Apologies if this is off-topic

Like I said I'm not affiliated with Systema at all, I just go through the same channels that everyone else like Tackleberry does to get parts (and soon complete guns).

I'm not a NiCD purist. Finding a quality LIPO is a issue. Brad alluded to it earlier.

I've found that the NiCDs are good enough for the PTW system and although I actually prefer running LiPO I don't like running batteries outside of the gun. I have had several firefox and other branded buffer batteries fail in AEG and PTW alike. I have yet to find a buffer LiPO aside from the pair of systema ones that I have last more than a season or for that matter more than two dozen charges.


On Topic(ish):
My issue with FCC is not with the product but the marketing. IE MILSPEC items that are not clearly not milspec (buffer tube, magwell geometry) marketed/sold as such. It's not like FCC didn't know the difference either, based on what you have posted in other threads they intentionally misled the market.

I really would like to have a 3.0 FCC motor to use/abuse and see if it really is as rugged/reliable as it is being marketed. But I have never had a catastrophic motor failure that a lot of the people are talking about.
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Old August 13th, 2013, 17:46   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Azathoth View Post
I'm not a NiCD purist. Finding a quality LIPO is a issue. Brad alluded to it earlier.

I've found that the NiCDs are good enough for the PTW system and although I actually prefer running LiPO I don't like running batteries outside of the gun. I have had several firefox and other branded buffer batteries fail in AEG and PTW alike. I have yet to find a buffer LiPO aside from the pair of systema ones that I have last more than a season or for that matter more than two dozen charges.
try the ones from NANOTECH and GEN ACE so far they are the best ones I've used, I went through almost 8 different brands before i settled on these two the C rating is consistent enough that I ran my gun till the battery is drained (stupid but I need to know the limits) it ran no issue and no swelling like the others teh Firefox is the worst, the Systema 14.8 is ok but I still prefer the NANOTECH and GEN ACE. During my stay in HK we tested the new prototype core/motor with Systema 14.8 and some 16V LiPo that they use to run RC, so I know that these cores will definitely ran and the motor held up under stress (we gamed them too using M150spring)

One of the conditions of partnership I have with FCC is that I get to break their product and so far with the exception of Pinion gears, 2 motors (using a 45C LiPo) I have not much luck, I even ran one motor with a 16V at full auto until the solder melt, re solder and re shoot with no issue.
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Old August 13th, 2013, 18:04   #94
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Motor failures are generally due to heat cycling, and it seems to me heat cycling is worse on LiPo batteries. I'm guessing because of the higher voltages there's just more wattage going to the motor creating more heat.
AFAIK the NiCd's supply comparable amperage to the LiPos and that's why systema always used them

And I understand the FCC motor is not the end all be all motor, but we want it to be! and that's why we're so critical of it lol
How much work is it really to redesign the head properly? At the very least I'd like to see the original 4 axially mounted screws at the head of the motor where the most force is going to be applied.

I could write an essay on why side mounted screws are a REALLY bad idea, but you just need to look at any industrial motor out there
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Old August 13th, 2013, 18:55   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Azathoth View Post
Apologies if this is off-topic

Like I said I'm not affiliated with Systema at all, I just go through the same channels that everyone else like Tackleberry does to get parts (and soon complete guns).

I'm not a NiCD purist. Finding a quality LIPO is a issue. Brad alluded to it earlier.

I've found that the NiCDs are good enough for the PTW system and although I actually prefer running LiPO I don't like running batteries outside of the gun. I have had several firefox and other branded buffer batteries fail in AEG and PTW alike. I have yet to find a buffer LiPO aside from the pair of systema ones that I have last more than a season or for that matter more than two dozen charges.


On Topic(ish):
My issue with FCC is not with the product but the marketing. IE MILSPEC items that are not clearly not milspec (buffer tube, magwell geometry) marketed/sold as such. It's not like FCC didn't know the difference either, based on what you have posted in other threads they intentionally misled the market.

I really would like to have a 3.0 FCC motor to use/abuse and see if it really is as rugged/reliable as it is being marketed. But I have never had a catastrophic motor failure that a lot of the people are talking about.
Well there is some issue in Japan, ORGA is probably one of the best shop when it comes to PTW they are like the tackleberry of JPN they have been getting issues with QC rifle and no parts so much so that they went to Tony for motors and FCC for motors parts and other essential items, whether some retailers or distributors are hoarding them or not it's not right an dit sends teh wrong message when one of your retailer in your own country could not get parts. As for FCC milspec well buffer tube is measured off a real buffer BCM and VLTOR ( I got them teh VLTOR) mags I just send them a new M3 magpul mags in regards to fitting RS stuff myself and a lot of others have no issue on it, all 5 of my FCC rifle have RS VLTOR/MAGPUL/stocks and my XM actually have authentic XM177 foregrips, stock and front triangle sights.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderCactus View Post
Motor failures are generally due to heat cycling, and it seems to me heat cycling is worse on LiPo batteries. I'm guessing because of the higher voltages there's just more wattage going to the motor creating more heat.
AFAIK the NiCd's supply comparable amperage to the LiPos and that's why systema always used them

And I understand the FCC motor is not the end all be all motor, but we want it to be! and that's why we're so critical of it lol
How much work is it really to redesign the head properly? At the very least I'd like to see the original 4 axially mounted screws at the head of the motor where the most force is going to be applied.

I could write an essay on why side mounted screws are a REALLY bad idea, but you just need to look at any industrial motor out there
At first I thought the same way How hard can it be to change the specs?, well after seeing it firsthand and the amount of money and work involved I understand fully why some manufacturer especially small ones like FCC cannot react immediately to failed designs. chnaging designs cost money and when you already invested on the design there is a certain margin they need to make before going to the next unfortunately following other design is not an option for several obvious reason. FCC don't just test their stuff on bench, 98% of their staff except the two girls in the office play everyweek this is how 80% of the design is tested, are they mechanical genius or engineer? NO All of them are tinkerers, well some of them have engineering degree but they are all players including the three owners so they do understand the frustration of running a TW platform and they do attemp to make things better but within their financial and technological ability. Are they perfect? well no but they are trying.

They do encourage their distributor/retailer and user to give them feedback, all constructive comments here I forward it to the boys and some of those have made it down to the 3.0 some have not for again several reasons and beta testing that result in failure in other parts.
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Old August 13th, 2013, 19:18   #96
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AZATHOTH

This is one of the batteries I used

http://www.airsoftcanada.com/showthr...09#post1824309
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Old August 13th, 2013, 19:31   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderCactus View Post
Motor failures are generally due to heat cycling, and it seems to me heat cycling is worse on LiPo batteries. I'm guessing because of the higher voltages there's just more wattage going to the motor creating more heat.
AFAIK the NiCd's supply comparable amperage to the LiPos and that's why systema always used them
The issue is really what happens to the motor when the battery becomes depleted. I am lazy, so I will ask you to Google "discharge curve for" whichever battery chemistry you want to compare. In lipo, the discharge is rather linear up until it is depleted, then it drops like a rock. In nicad, its curve is very shallow in comparison.

When users notice a slowdown in motor soeed when shooting, it is a cue that it is time to change the battery. With nicad, it recovers a bit and you can get a few more shots out, and a dead battery always happens at the worst time, doesn't it? With lipo, when you hear a slowdown, it may already be too late.

Without getting heavy into the science/engineering aspect of motors and all the math, think of a motor like any other inductor or transformer. Because it is. So now you can apply all the laws and formulas regarding inductance, as well as a helping of motor theory. When the voltage drops to an inductor, inductance drops, the magnetic field strength the armature is capable of is reduced, and the motor slows down. Nicads will deliver current but at reduced voltage. Inductors by their nature resist changes in current (like capacitors resist changes in voltage) and they will transform their charge current (when they are getting current from the battery) into discharge current (when they geting no or reduced current from the battery). And, being inductors, this discharge current is a function of time, the shorter the time, the higher the current. This is why we as electricians must make provisions for and be aware of inductive spikes when you open inductive loads like motors, and it is the reason there are motor ratings on switches, breakers, contactors, etc.

Now, with lipo, they are a constant voltage battery, their current delivery does not follow a linear curve in relationship to voltage like nicad does. The battery may still be reading 11 volts and not be able to generate much current. This means the inductance of the armature stays constant, and it is dumping current as much as retaining it. In a motor that spins at 30,000 rpm, with 2 pole reversals per turn, this means that the armature is charging and discharging 60,000 times per minute. It is a veritable inductive jackhammer, and the windings are paying the price.

Perhaps lipo alarms would prevent some of it, quality batteries might help, but I think it is something that users will just have to live with.

Quote:
And I understand the FCC motor is not the end all be all motor, but we want it to be! and that's why we're so critical of it lol
How much work is it really to redesign the head properly? At the very least I'd like to see the original 4 axially mounted screws at the head of the motor where the most force is going to be applied.
There is lots of design changes that could be made. Windings could be thicker, but that means more turns, more armature mass, and the weight penalty would mean slower RPM. The brushes can be improved. The trueness of the comm could be better. Spring strength could be better. Height adjustment to accomodate the variety of aftermarket lowers and gearboxes would be nice. The better attention paid to smooth layering of windings, a soldered comm joint, solid lashing and dipping to prevent winding resonance are good places to go.

Perpendicular screws are not a good idea mechanically, but there is alot of more critical areas to address to performance and longevity.


Quote:
I could write an essay on why side mounted screws are a REALLY bad idea, but you just need to look at any industrial motor out there
Yep. Good luck finding a motor out there done like that. PTW motors are by far the cheapest motors I deal with.
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Old August 13th, 2013, 19:33   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildcard View Post
AZATHOTH

This is one of the batteries I used

http://www.airsoftcanada.com/showthr...09#post1824309
Thanks I have a link to RCmart/hobbyking for the battery saved, I just don't have the need for them atm as i am still trailing VENOM & Zippy RC batteries.

As for the 16v in a PTW. I am not impressed. Their are AEG tuners out their running 22.2v LiPO 65C 4400mah in their guns. People have been running 12 and 16v NiXX batteries long before that on the AEG platform.

Brushless motor will impress me. A LWRCI M6A3 Full ambi selector, mag release, bolt release, capable of shooting >800+fps. Or better yet, a AK-74, Type 95 TW.
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Old August 13th, 2013, 19:40   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcguyver View Post
There is lots of design changes that could be made. Windings could be thicker, but that means more turns, more armature mass, and the weight penalty would mean slower RPM. The brushes can be improved. The trueness of the comm could be better. Spring strength could be better. Height adjustment to accomodate the variety of aftermarket lowers and gearboxes would be nice. The better attention paid to smooth layering of windings, a soldered comm joint, solid lashing and dipping to prevent winding resonance are good places to go.


Yep. Good luck finding a motor out there done like that. PTW motors are by far the cheapest motors I deal with.
You also forgot the part Brad on how much the market are willing to pony up, I was told that a "perfect" motor would cost in excess of $500, now I don't know if most players that run a PTW will even consider touching that. $500+ for a motor that are well build and bullet proof sounds like a death to any company in terms of making their profit, as good as it sounds it's just not a smart business decisions plus I wouldn't even want to know the R&D cost in time and design labor to that motor.
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Old August 13th, 2013, 19:44   #100
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You also forgot the part Brad on how much the market are willing to pony up, I was told that a "perfect" motor would cost in excess of $500, now I don't know if most players that run a PTW will even consider touching that. $500+ for a motor that are well build and bullet proof sounds like a death to any company in terms of making their profit, as good as it sounds it's just not a smart business decisions plus I wouldn't even want to know the R&D cost in time and design labor to that motor.
If a stock motor now costs $250 as a part, a $500 motor is definately a marketable item. I have some motors now that have $450 invested in them between initial cost + rewind.

Guys who run Nascar or F1 burn up $100,000 motors like it is a cost of doing business. Same for PTW, if you play with the big toys, you pay like the big boys.
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Old August 13th, 2013, 19:50   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcguyver View Post
If a stock motor now costs $250 as a part, a $500 motor is definately a marketable item. I have some motors now that have $450 invested in them between initial cost + rewind.

Guys who run Nascar or F1 burn up $100,000 motors like it is a cost of doing business. Same for PTW, if you play with the big toys, you pay like the big boys.
LoL yeah well spending excess of $500 cost for a motor for a toy gun will be the end, if you and I bought the damn thing we wont be married to our wives much longer I rather spend it on more .223 or 5.56, there is a limit on how much I can spend on my toys before the CFO penalize the shit out of me ie.Trying to convince my wife that I need a PVS14 to go with my helmet is trying to convince her to allow me to go to the playboy mansion alone. Nope I valued my freedom and my married life, $500+at cost for a motor is even a bit too much for me to justify.
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Old August 13th, 2013, 19:51   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcguyver View Post
If a stock motor now costs $250 as a part, a $500 motor is definately a marketable item. I have some motors now that have $450 invested in them between initial cost + rewind.

Guys who run Nascar or F1 burn up $100,000 motors like it is a cost of doing business. Same for PTW, if you play with the big toys, you pay like the big boys.
If you got $3k to put into a toy gun.. $500 to make it run like a top is chump change.
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Old August 13th, 2013, 19:53   #103
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If you got $3k to put into a toy gun.. $500 to make it run like a top is chump change.
its more like anywhere close to $700 retail Brian, $500+ is just an estimated manufacturer cost.
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Old August 13th, 2013, 20:36   #104
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I know guys with 3-4 motors who probably spent $1000 on them over the years. If a company can make a motor that would last hundreds of thousands of rounds with perhaps several $30 brush changes over the course of years, guys would pay $700 or more. Guaranteed.

But nobody is going to want to be the guinea pig. That is the problem.
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Old August 13th, 2013, 21:12   #105
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I know guys with 3-4 motors who probably spent $1000 on them over the years. If a company can make a motor that would last hundreds of thousands of rounds with perhaps several $30 brush changes over the course of years, guys would pay $700 or more. Guaranteed.

But nobody is going to want to be the guinea pig. That is the problem.
Lol exactly. I have the habit of buying two or three of the same type model of airsoft over the years even on the 1,2,3 gen PTW motors, ecu etc because I know they will break. but at one point a good buddy (Tys) ask me is all that backup for a backup of a backup neccesary? I guess everyone of us did have a collection of parts or backup parts for all the tempermental toys like airsoft at one point or another. The tech available to do a super motor now is not quite there yet but experimental prototype can be build but the cost of it is too much for one small company to bear and the return of investment ratio is far to great to risk. A few oldies here can probably remember the experimental V2 CNC Stainless steel mechbox that cost us almost $2000 each back in early 90's where only 12 was made and even then it diddn't resolve the dreaded V2 mechbox cracking issue and back then who would have guessed all the V2 really ever need is a cushion for teh piston to reduce the impact force.......a $.50 fix if that.
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