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Old March 23rd, 2013, 11:14   #16
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You are more than welcome to give mine a test ride if you attend any of teh games I go to
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Old March 23rd, 2013, 11:29   #17
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Let us just be clear here folks, FCC is really not cheaper than Systema, don't be fooled yet by the hype. And no, they are not "more reliable", I have seen failures of their core components as well.

They have some innovations in material, and yes, they bring some products out as features that Systema could have done, had they not been in Japan.

But when $2000 for a Systema causes you to "pass", but when it is an FCC, you are interested, well, clearly, you don't know the platform.

Currently, for reliability, I will take an FCC body with Systema internals, and an armature from Tony with my own hopup.

Sorry, Jay, I am calling it as I see it.
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Old March 23rd, 2013, 11:55   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcguyver View Post
Let us just be clear here folks, FCC is really not cheaper than Systema, don't be fooled yet by the hype. And no, they are not "more reliable", I have seen failures of their core components as well.

They have some innovations in material, and yes, they bring some products out as features that Systema could have done, had they not been in Japan.

But when $2000 for a Systema causes you to "pass", but when it is an FCC, you are interested, well, clearly, you don't know the platform.

Currently, for reliability, I will take an FCC body with Systema internals, and an armature from Tony with my own hopup.

Sorry, Jay, I am calling it as I see it.
You may have some great luck with your PTW but the last time I checked Brad I had to literally begged for parts within this board to get my $2K plus toy gun working again and only to have it failed even the 2012 that I got from DTT, even Tony's modded gun have failed in my hand lucky for me he responds a whole hell lot faster than Systema or Zshot. FCC however have never failed me yet 50K in bbs shot from one AEG not one single failure yet, losing my new 416 in deep wet snow, still working I can't say the same for my Systema in fact the only one I have left is their TW5 which by the way are far more reliable than their M4 series. FCC have their faults I'm not saying that they are fault proof but their after sales support and their willingness to acknowledge faulty parts are unbelieveable, you should know how many burned out faulty motors hav ecoem across your bench? probably too many to count, I came across two motors and each one was replaced no question asked. Like you I call it the way I see it too.

*edit* Also I'm forgetting to state that from a company that was started by players in 2008 to have gone as far as they have become now is a quite amazing, do they have things to improve on? hell yes its the future of what is coming out from this little company that peaked my interest and from personal experience I have nothing but good experience from them and this is coming from huge systema fan and user since they started their AEG line with Marui. For the general masses without the know how to or the means to fix their PTW issue, they are teh best one in the market right now hands down.
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Old March 23rd, 2013, 12:19   #19
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I am currently working on a Systema that the owner ordered an FCC EL-001 that failed instantly never got a round off. He has been waiting weeks, so his Systema board is back in. Their EL-003 is Airsoft Surgeon design, and we all know how reliable they were, I still have a box full of them under my bench.

FCC has some work to do, I have spoken to Chris about the issues I saw right away that are really easy fixes at the manufacturing level. They include, but are not limited to:

Their motor. QC and assembly is horrendous there is no reason that their brush hoods have to be so poorly formed that they flash out from the bell end. If you are installing, but most especially removing a grip, you risk breaking the screws. If you are using this motor to replace a Systema motor and using grip with tight tolerances, it is a real bastard.

Their mil-spec buffer tube is not mil-milspec. Buy a real stock and it is a son of a bitch. Dissapointing.

Their MOE grip cover leaves the motor exposed. I can stick tools in and touch the brush hoods, forget about debris. There is no fix unless you install a MIAD or customize a grip core as I have done.

Their hopup is as good as a 2012, but nowhere near as good as custom 3mm, and as good as a custom 2mm.

The improvements they do have are, but not limited to:

The barrel key has threads to allow for easier extraction.

The hopup uses a spring for tension instead of rubber cushions. But continuous compression and decompression of a small diameter spring has its own issues. So this is more of a neutral, rather than a plus.

Their gearbox and geartrain are in par, no better, no worse.

Motor. I will take take an armature from Tony any day over a fcatory FCC motor. However, their motor from new is superior than the factory motor from new, but not for reasons indicated above. One thing to remember as well, getting a rewound armature and placing it in a motor that the bearings have already seen a hundred thousand rounds may not be the best thing. I have seen this crop up.

FCC body is superior. No question there.

The rest is really inconsequential, but they do offer some neat features like EZ pull pins. But I can also buy that stuff from real steel for alot less money and easier availability.

Customer service I have heard is better. But, I have never had to use customer service at Systema, and there is no person who is not a retailer on ASC who has owned more Systema guns than me, not even you, by a long shot. I did have get parts one time from Wallace that were unavailable anywhere, and he sent me a bunch of replacement armatures no charge. That was good service.

Don't get me wrong, FCC does make some nice stuff, I own it myself. And I would buy more. However, my standards are high, and I have the resources and experience to call what I see and fix it. But FCC should be doing it. We'll see.

If I had been in Calgary this weekend they would have heard about it.
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Old March 23rd, 2013, 12:36   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcguyver View Post
I am currently working on a Systema that the owner ordered an FCC EL-001 that failed instantly never got a round off. He has been waiting weeks, so his Systema board is back in. Their EL-003 is Airsoft Surgeon design, and we all know how reliable they were, I still have a box full of them under my bench.

FCC has some work to do, I have spoken to Chris about the issues I saw right away that are really easy fixes at the manufacturing level. They include, but are not limited to:

Their motor. QC and assembly is horrendous there is no reason that their brush hoods have to be so poorly formed that they flash out from the bell end. If you are installing, but most especially removing a grip, you risk breaking the screws. If you are using this motor to replace a Systema motor and using grip with tight tolerances, it is a real bastard.

Their mil-spec buffer tube is not mil-milspec. Buy a real stock and it is a son of a bitch. Dissapointing.

Their MOE grip cover leaves the motor exposed. I can stick tools in and touch the brush hoods, forget about debris. There is no fix unless you install a MIAD or customize a grip core as I have done.

Their hopup is as good as a 2012, but nowhere near as good as custom 3mm, and as good as a custom 2mm.

The improvements they do have are, but not limited to:

The barrel key has threads to allow for easier extraction.

The hopup uses a spring for tension instead of rubber cushions. But continuous compression and decompression of a small diameter spring has its own issues. So this is more of a neutral, rather than a plus.

Their gearbox and geartrain are in par, no better, no worse.

Motor. I will take take an armature from Tony any day over a fcatory FCC motor. However, their motor from new is superior than the factory motor from new, but not for reasons indicated above. One thing to remember as well, getting a rewound armature and placing it in a motor that the bearings have already seen a hundred thousand rounds may not be the best thing. I have seen this crop up.

FCC body is superior. No question there.

The rest is really inconsequential, but they do offer some neat features like EZ pull pins. But I can also buy that stuff from real steel for alot less money and easier availability.

Customer service I have heard is better. But, I have never had to use customer service at Systema, and there is no person who is not a retailer on ASC who has owned more Systema guns than me, not even you, by a long shot. I did have get parts one time from Wallace that were unavailable anywhere, and he sent me a bunch of replacement armatures no charge. That was good service.

Don't get me wrong, FCC does make some nice stuff, I own it myself. And I would buy more. However, my standards are high, and I have the resources and experience to call what I see and fix it. But FCC should be doing it. We'll see.

If I had been in Calgary this weekend they would have heard about it.
Well some of the issues you mentioned are being worked on, the new milspec buffer tube are indeed mil spec I have one on my 416 and have no issu ewith the stock however I do agree with you that their older milspec stuff are off a bit and a bitch. Their CS and QA are quite reachable either through email or facebook and any question or concerns are answered within 1-2 business days sometime even within hours.

In regards to the motor, again it is better than stock ( I have yet to have a failure) but no doubt that Tony's motor is a gem but not readilly available i had 1 burnt out in 6 yrs of using so it was great while it lasted. FCC is a small company that is seeing growth so I'm still interested to see what they will come up next, I'm sort of tired of the same old AR platform being rehashed again and again but without the so much of an acknowledgement of the issues in hand or improvement.

CS at Zshot is almost questionable, Wallace used to be on the ball but as hi scompany grew his CS are very questionable I used to get great service from him but inthe last three years its a hit or miss mostly a miss mind you that Systema itself have had very little parts available to its distributors in the last two years. Remember the 001/002 boards that I was desperately begging for?
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Old March 23rd, 2013, 12:42   #21
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I wish I could have a more in-depth on the 416, but it is appearing that my dreams are slowly being extinguished. I should have had one months ago when I ordered, but alas, nothing.

What I will be completing will be the FCC/Systema/real hybrid. I get the best of all of it for far less than a factory 416. But I still want one anyway.
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Old March 23rd, 2013, 13:10   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcguyver View Post
I wish I could have a more in-depth on the 416, but it is appearing that my dreams are slowly being extinguished. I should have had one months ago when I ordered, but alas, nothing.

What I will be completing will be the FCC/Systema/real hybrid. I get the best of all of it for far less than a factory 416. But I still want one anyway.
Buddy I told you before man drop by to Toronto I'll let you molest it, it is very sweet BTW better than the WE/Systema/ hybrid concoction that I had before
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Old March 23rd, 2013, 13:17   #23
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Every time i looked into a systema it was 2900-4000 and in most cases just a plain jane m4 (no rail system or anything) these are said to be sub2000 (likely 1899 or 1999 but still thats 1/3 off the price of a systema thays what i was saying price wise it is more reasonable for folks like me who dont have as much disposable income

Edit i see now that the systema stuff is alot cheaper then when i last looked thats good to see. Time to do more research i spose
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Old March 23rd, 2013, 13:32   #24
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Perhaps I`m missing something here or just un-educated...regarding pricing...I`m seeing Some Systema`s for $1500-$2080 BNIB. And these are MSRP less than $2000.... Why am I so confused here after reading some of the comments saying this would be a good idea "pricewise"?
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Old March 23rd, 2013, 13:38   #25
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Quote:
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Perhaps I`m missing something here or just un-educated...regarding pricing...I`m seeing Some Systema`s for $1500-$2080 BNIB. And these are MSRP less than $2000.... Why am I so confused here after reading some of the comments saying this would be a good idea "pricewise"?
Well, you get a rail on the FCC, so add $200

I am not sure if this version of body is on par quailty-wise with the CNCd version FCC makes. But if it is, add another $200. If it a cast alloy, then cost wise is the same.

I would expect 2013 Systema to be $2000, and not any less, in Canada, so product to product they are very close. Used or previous model years can be all over the place. I don't trust BNIB in the classifieds. Some guys say BNIB and it really means that they used it for a few games, but didn't beat it up or break it. Not the same thing.
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Old March 23rd, 2013, 14:40   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcguyver View Post
Well, you get a rail on the FCC, so add $200

I am not sure if this version of body is on par quailty-wise with the CNCd version FCC makes. But if it is, add another $200. If it a cast alloy, then cost wise is the same.

I would expect 2013 Systema to be $2000, and not any less, in Canada, so product to product they are very close. Used or previous model years can be all over the place. I don't trust BNIB in the classifieds. Some guys say BNIB and it really means that they used it for a few games, but didn't beat it up or break it. Not the same thing.
A buddy paid $2640 for the 2013 super max plus all the other accesories ie . mags, batteries, rail and CTR stock. His gun is on my desk right now waiting for a new motor from Zshot

The Body eventhough it's cast its one of the nicest one yet almost the same as their CNC I will have a detailed review of it soon.
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Old March 23rd, 2013, 16:01   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enjoi View Post
Perhaps I`m missing something here or just un-educated...regarding pricing...I`m seeing Some Systema`s for $1500-$2080 BNIB. And these are MSRP less than $2000.... Why am I so confused here after reading some of the comments saying this would be a good idea "pricewise"?
Well if you get a stock systema around say $1800 you could never leave it stock so sent out the motor and Hop up + $100, rails +$200, aftermarket body +$200, upgrade stocks & mini ECU + $300 (conservative), other furniture and blings +$150 so in the end it's quite an amount still and you still have to waterproof the boards and no burst unless you buy it direct from Systema

So in the end its still economical to the general population to get the FCC. much like some players here who have owned multiple PTW I was one of teh doubters of this company I can't believe that a small company from HK can fix the issues that a large company like Systema have failed to acknowledge or fixed but the quality of some o ftheir parts and the result won me over to the point where I ditch almost all of my PTW for their custom build model, even the one Tony build with all the Prime body sexiness. Like Brad said in teh earlier post BNIB sometimes are not BNIB unless you know the owner personally.
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Old March 30th, 2013, 13:28   #28
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ahh needs the veske lower receiver...
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Old April 1st, 2013, 09:19   #29
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ahh needs the veske lower receiver...
Wait till you see what's coming up soon
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Old April 7th, 2013, 12:31   #30
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$2000.00 is good price wise because of what you get, and I concur that it's well worth it. I imagine they'll come down more in the next few years because of companies like FCC.

I'm with Brad on the pros and cons, but eventually FCC should be better all around. They should focus on places Systema flopped, or where mediocre first. Mastering that is what guys like MacGuyver and myself have been waiting for. Its too bad you didn't get to come down to Calgary Mac, I'd have loved to see you pick FCC's brain. I have my own opinions and experiences as being a long time Systema owner, heavy heavy user, and doctor; but I still defer to Mac as the foremost expert.
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