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Old October 22nd, 2012, 18:39   #1
jayliu1984
 
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Please Answer These Qs for a pre-newbie

Hi everyone, this is my first post. I am a big fan of airsoft, have been watching the trend for couple years now and the sport has become very attractive to me (legal to own a gun, more players join, better guns, more affordable and steady income after graduation).

But, I have my reservations, and I like to get some opinions on them before I jump in the sport.

I, like many others, like airsoft for its authenticity. Yes, airsoft looks really real but how real does it play out in the field, that's the part where I hesitate in joining the sport.

1. Range issues. From what I gathered, 400pfs roughly gets you 30m accurate shooting and 50m for man size if you are lucky. But 50m is really short, isn't it? I can imagine how frustrate it is to see some1 and you have to sneak up THAT close to open fire.

2. ROF and midcap hicap issue. Most of the videos I see, it's spray and pray. Ok, not wild spray, but still. With players running 300rd hicap and lipo, it is really unrealistic. And under such dense fire, even sticking a head out seems dangerous. I mean, some guns shoots so fast, the BBs are like a string of dots.

3. Recoil and full auto. I know recoil is a technical restriction, so there is no solution to it. But full auto + no recoil, isn't it just like COD? How do you people like it? Doesn't it ruin some of the "realistic" experience?

4. Sound and stealth. Even the loudest AEG seems much much quieter than silenced weapon. Coupled with "1 hit kill" and "dead man don't talk" rules. Isn't it frustrating hard to find where enemy is especially everyone is wearing camo.

5. Gun differentiation, Mp5 = M4 = MSG as long as they are equipped with 300round mag.. that turns me off.

I am really interested in airsoft, but those factors I mentioned above really turns me off.

I think airsoft should be like:

1. smg = 250fps + fullauto
2. rifles = 400fps + semi
3. mg = 400fps + fullauto but limited to 1 per 5 player or less
4. pistol = 250fps
5. all guns can carry less than twice of its real counter part (eg. 60 rounds for rifles). This is to limit hi-cap spam but compensate for inaccuracy of airsfots.
6. rof should be no faster than 2/3 of its real counter part (applys to smg and mg, rifle is semi) because the rounds travel much slower than real bullet, it is unrealistic to have the BBs fire this fast (think about distance between each bullet)

Can you guys offer some of your opinion why you enjoy Airsoft and how do you deal with "unrealistic" part of airsoft where "realistic" is big part of why airsoft is so attractive.
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Old October 22nd, 2012, 19:10   #2
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well I've been at this for just over a year and ill say this now. When people say it's more realistic. They mean the guns look real. Period. and if those points turn you off you're probably not going to like the sport in it's current state. We're seeing a huge price drop in guns which means more new players, which in turn means the open games are essentially COD with exercise.
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Old October 22nd, 2012, 19:13   #3
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You're a big fan of airsoft, it's just that it's so unrealistic that it sucks?

There are different levels of airsoft, it sounds like you want to play with a full MilSim club with GBBR (realcap 30 rounds, gas blowback for recoil). You can only get so much range out of 6mm plastic BB though. I think you'll have to join the Forces if you want to get more realistic.

Maybe you should go out and play an actual game with a rental/loaner gun and see what's really important to you in this sport.

Last edited by DustMagnet; October 22nd, 2012 at 19:13.. Reason: Grammar told me to
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Old October 22nd, 2012, 19:19   #4
Danke
 
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Where are you located?

Running a gas rifle will deal with most of the issues you mention.
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Old October 22nd, 2012, 19:24   #5
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1) Range varies on what internals you have, but it's obviously going to be much shorter than a real bullet. It's just the way it's designed. There's really no possible way to make it go further with BBs since they are round in shape.

2) Most veterans and people who are experienced in airsoft will treat hi-caps as taboo, and most milsims will either limit hicaps, or ban them outright. It's mostly appealing to newer players who just want to spray all the time.

3) If you want recoil, go for a gas gun. Most people don't like them because of the amount of maintenance required and drawbacks, but they're really fun to use.

4) It's just another drawback to how AEGs are designed, can't really fix that.

5) I can't tell if you're talking about gun variation, or hicaps, or both...but there's a lot of different gun models and manufactures out there, just gotta dig around. Hicaps I've already mentioned.
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Old October 22nd, 2012, 19:25   #6
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Quote:
1. Range issues. From what I gathered, 400pfs roughly gets you 30m accurate shooting and 50m for man size if you are lucky. But 50m is really short, isn't it? I can imagine how frustrate it is to see some1 and you have to sneak up THAT close to open fire.
Range do not depends that much on fps, but accuracy, or how consistent your gun is operating in every shooting. To get consistency you need high-quality internals (That is the most important difference between a 375 fps real airsoft and a 375 fps canadiantire "airsoft". ), high quality BBs, and well-tuned parts.


Quote:
2. ROF and midcap hicap issue. Most of the videos I see, it's spray and pray. Ok, not wild spray, but still. With players running 300rd hicap and lipo, it is really unrealistic. And under such dense fire, even sticking a head out seems dangerous. I mean, some guns shoots so fast, the BBs are like a string of dots.
That is called suppressing fire. If everyone is playing in the spraying style with Hicap, that will take away a lot of realisim. But serious player will try not play in that style, fire in brusts, and using mid-caps. Game organizers may also set up rules limiting the amount ammo in each player, or limit the using of drum/box magazines to LMGs, and let the LMG gunners to do the suppressing, that way, the suppressing fire will actually improve realism. It is just how the players and organizers decide to go with the game.

Quote:
3. Recoil and full auto. I know recoil is a technical restriction, so there is no solution to it. But full auto + no recoil, isn't it just like COD? How do you people like it? Doesn't it ruin some of the "realistic" experience?
I always pretend there is recoil by firing in brusts, to improve realism.


Quote:
4. Sound and stealth. Even the loudest AEG seems much much quieter than silenced weapon. Coupled with "1 hit kill" and "dead man don't talk" rules. Isn't it frustrating hard to find where enemy is especially everyone is wearing camo.
Most people are not that good at stealth, and camo do not work that well. It is possible to move stealthly to get good firing position or use ambush, but once the firing starts, it is nearly possible to hide in close distance.


Quote:
5. Gun differentiation, Mp5 = M4 = MSG as long as they are equipped with 300round mag.. that turns me off.
The different gun is mostly a personal preference thing, most people just pick one that thay like and fits their playing style.


Quote:
I am really interested in airsoft, but those factors I mentioned above really turns me off.
I think airsoft should be like:
1. smg = 250fps + fullauto
2. rifles = 400fps + semi
3. mg = 400fps + fullauto but limited to 1 per 5 player or less
4. pistol = 250fps
5. all guns can carry less than twice of its real counter part (eg. 60 rounds for rifles). This is to limit hi-cap spam but compensate for inaccuracy of airsfots.
6. rof should be no faster than 2/3 of its real counter part (applys to smg and mg, rifle is semi) because the rounds travel much slower than real bullet, it is unrealistic to have the BBs fire this fast (think about distance between each bullet)
Some fields have rules similar that, but not that low for SMG/CQB weapons, 250 fps is too low.
Semi only for assault rifles is also unrealistic. There are other ways to prevent hi-cap spam, like a ammo carrying limit, or a rule preventing winding high-cap at the same time as firing.
Example: The AAS rule:

Quote:
3.2 Weapon Velocity Limits
New Players
-new players will not be allowed to exceed 330fps (with 0.2g BBs) for their first 5 official AAS games.
-this limit can be raised by admins punish dangerous behavior. Also at the end of the 5 games any upgrades are subject to approval by admin staff.

CQB weapons
-full auto pistols and full auto CQB weapons may not exceed 330 fps (with 0.2g BBs).

Close-medium range weapons
-360 fps (with 0.2g BBs) is the limit for all AEGs not covered by the sniper class
-any airsoft gun shooting 330-360fps (with 0.2g BBs) should be used with common sense in CQB situations. Aim low, use as few shots as possible and be courteous.


Sniper- long range guns
-Sniper rifles may exceed 360 fps (with 0.2g BBs) however they are not to be used at medium and close range. For safety reasons this will be heavily enforced.
-AEG sniper rifles firing above 400fps must have a fire control computer installed to limit them to semi auto only with 1.5 second delay between shots. (http://unconventional-airsoft.com/store/)
-No gun may exceed 500 fps (measured with 0.2g BBs)
-if you are new to the sport you will not be elligable for this class. All admissions to the sniper class are subject to the approval of the admin staff.


3.3 Magazine Specific Rules
-We prefer that people invest in locaps (30-70 rounds) since military simulation is what Airsoft is all about.
-we realize that not everyone can afford locaps so the following hicap rules will be in place at certain events for hicap users (but not all):
-Ammo cap of 300 rounds in the hicap. No spare ammo may be carried into the field. Hicap users will only be able to refill at respawn points. Spare locaps can be taken into the field.
-some event will also have a semi auto only rule for hicap users (not all events).

Boxmags
-boxmags can only be used on legitimate support weapons. This means they can only be used on LMG's such as the M249 or any weapon converted into a support machine guns like an Armalite Shrike or a PK.
-boxmags should be used on guns shooting 350fps or lower

But there are some other considerations. Some players cannot afford many low-caps, some guns don't even have lowcaps. BB are not as accurate as bullets, 2-3 BBs will behave like one real bullet. So Mid-cap or low-cap plus slightly higher ROF is fine.
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Last edited by ccyg8774; October 22nd, 2012 at 19:32..
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Old October 22nd, 2012, 19:38   #7
FirestormX
 
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I wrote this at work, before the other replies were posted, but just noticed I didn't hit "submit", so sorry if I'm repeating anything:

1) Airsoft gun ranges are definitely limited. Further distance = more energy = more injury at closer range. The legal limit of an unregulated firearm is 500FPS with a .2g BB. If you put in a heavier BB, it will shoot slower, but because it's the same spring, it will have the same amount of energy in it.
That being said, it wouldn't be as eventful, if everyone hunkered down 100m from each other, because they're afraid of getting shot from someone out of sight. A lot of battles do get you up close with each other though (fighting for a bunker, and what-not), and if you play CQB, it's no problem at all.

2) A lot of games limit you to the mags or amount of ammo you can use. A lot of the videos you've seen are probably from the US, where people aren't such stringent asshol--I mean, more casual about it. =P
So if you go to a game with a lot of ASC members, there's more trigger control, less wasted ammo, etc. Remember that plastic BBs are nowhere near as accurate as a bullet, so if you want "realism", I've seen games where you put in 2 or 3 times as many bullets as a real mag would hold, since it could take you 2 or 3 shots to hit a target dead on, that a real bullet wouldn't have a problem missing. (which, I guess is the same as what you suggested)

3) You can get GBBs for a bit of recoil, but it's not a ton. It's not realistic, but you can still make it realistic with trigger control. Just because your gun can shoot 120 BBs on a single point if you hold down your trigger, doesn't mean you have to play like that - and you probably won't play like that either. If you're pulling the trigger (outside of a support range), it's probably at a target. You wouldn't want to hold down the trigger for several seconds at a player.

4) GBBs are louder, but AEGs aren't silent. Combined with your first point about the limited range, I don't think you'll have people dropping dead around you, as you spin around in circles, trying to find where the shots came from.

5) They're toy guns, so they're limited as far as ammunition goes. But that's really the only thing that differentiates them from real guns. eg a P90 fires armour piercing rounds that are only effective at close range, with minimal recoil, while an M16 will go longer range, but with more kick. Other than that, the other major factors are size and weight. An M16 is terrible for CQB, and a P90 is nice and tight, so that's where a lot of the differentiation comes from in picking an airsoft gun.

As for your suggestions about the guns themselves, you can modify your gun's FPS (and ROF with a bit more work) pretty easily, and and then the other suggestions (eg 1 LMG per 5 players) are game related. So if you go to a game (or organize one), these rules can be set.


Paintball and airsoft are kind of comparable, in that as airsoft grows (as it has in the states), you'll have casual players playing, who are just in it to win, get some adrenaline pumping, etc. But you'll also have people who like to slow the game down, make things a bit more realistic, do more tactics/planning, and so on, so that they can have an enjoyable experience.

ASC is made up of a lot of the latter category, and there are a lot of milsim games hosted every year, so you won't have trouble finding games that are more about that sort of experience. You have to remember airsoft guns are made as toys, meant for a large segment of people to have fun with them. So they have the ability to have an insane ROF, highcap mags, interchangeable parts between different gun types. But
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Old October 22nd, 2012, 19:43   #8
Rusty Lugnuts
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Rent or borrow a gun and try it, if a picture is worth a thousand words then a game is worth a million. Host a game and implement any rules you like. BTW if you were thinking of taking up swimming would you first try and dictate how deep the pool could be?
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Old October 22nd, 2012, 19:58   #9
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Originally Posted by FirestormX View Post
But you'll also have people who like to slow the game down, make things a bit more realistic, do more tactics/planning, and so on, so that they can have an enjoyable experience.

ASC is made up of a lot of the latter category, and there are a lot of milsim games hosted every year, so you won't have trouble finding games that are more about that sort of experience. You have to remember airsoft guns are made as toys, meant for a large segment of people to have fun with them. So they have the ability to have an insane ROF, highcap mags, interchangeable parts between different gun types. But
huge +1 to this .. To the OP: if you want a more involved experience that doesn't boil down to CoD speedball, start making friends here, keep your eye on the games listings in your area, and be picky about which games you attend. Join a team and start getting into what makes airsoft games really interesting, strategy, communication, teamwork and creativity ..

The single quickest way to skip over all the bullshit and "noob struggles" as I like to call them is to join a crew of experienced players, and I don't mean backyard airsofters. If you show up at a game, try to see if you can join a squad of players who seem to know what they're doing and have a plan and a strategy, and try to fall in line with what they're doing. Being part of a team helps you get into the more interesting parts of the sport much quicker, and connects you to gun doctors, etc. Your concerns about realism and equipment issues will fade away as you focus more on the camaraderie and playing of roles.
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Old October 22nd, 2012, 20:03   #10
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Oh wow, I guess the reason I didn't post that, was because I didn't finish the last sentence. =/

I meant to end that with something like "but if you play with a group of people who have a specific playing style, who use midcaps, who don't spray on full auto, and so on, you can have a more "realistic" experience."
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Old October 22nd, 2012, 20:56   #11
jayliu1984
 
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Thanks for the replies guys. Please keep the opinions flowing and it will print a clearer picture for us people who are interested in joining airsoft.

The reason why I think rifles should be limited to semi is to allow PDW to go full auto at 300- fps. I think there should be a distinctive difference between each types of weapon, which promotes teamwork and planning. Besides, going full auto on a target 20m away is still very difficult beyond initial burst on real guns (based on my limited expereince on a full auto M4 I shot), why should airsoft rifle be allowed to go full auto since it doesn't have recoil? I just wish that airsoft is not like "who spots whom first wins" like I see on many videos.

I checked the clubs around vancouver BC where I live and there aren't many regular mil-sim games, and no restrictions on mag size, basically open game. So...
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Old October 22nd, 2012, 21:05   #12
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Old October 22nd, 2012, 21:30   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jayliu1984 View Post
why should airsoft rifle be allowed to go full auto since it doesn't have recoil? I just wish that airsoft is not like "who spots whom first wins" like I see on many videos.
The gun can be fired at full auto do not mean every one player will fire it in full auto spraying. Brusts can do almost anything full auto can do, on a rifle, with less wasting of ammo and more realisim, but if you limit to semi only, you will also prevent brusts, since "firing computers" or MOSFETs doing brusts is not very common.
If you are thinking about a DMR, most groups have semi-only rule for DMRs.
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