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Old August 14th, 2012, 11:39   #16
DarkDream
 
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Eseeweb is asking this due to a recent change in the area. The rules read 0 MED @400, 430 is the max. The field is 100 ft by 200ft with alot of obstacles (so you never get an MED of 30 ft unless you're standing in the open). Any BB can be used but .25s are recommended. No enforced mercy, no gear requirement. No age limit. The age limit is determined by the paintball field, and will field anyone with parental signature. This particular field, with this particular host could potentially be running 14 year olds on the field, no vest @ 430. This particular host also claims that 400 fps indoors is "pretty much a CANADWIDE standard".

I'd like to add that I have no problem with a 400 FPS indoors, but ONLY if you have the space to do so, ex. Black Sheep, or Rhino. You had huge empty rooms, and massive amounts of outdoor play. Also, I'd much prefer playing with quality players at 400, because I know they're not going to light me up point blank. They're going to pull pistol in close range situations, etc.
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Old August 14th, 2012, 11:51   #17
Brian McIlmoyle
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Eseeweb is asking this due to a recent change in the area. The rules read 0 MED @400, 430 is the max. The field is 100 ft by 200ft with alot of obstacles (so you never get an MED of 30 ft unless you're standing in the open. Any BB can be used but .25s are recommended. No enforced mercy, no gear requirement. No age limit. The age limit is determined by the paintball field, and will field anyone with parental signature. This particular field, with this particular host could potentially be running 14 year olds on the field, no vest @ 430.

I'd like to add that I have no problem with a 400 FPS indoors, but ONLY if you have the space to do so, ex. Black Sheep, or Rhino. You had huge empty rooms, and massive amounts of outdoor play. Also, I'd much prefer playing with quality players at 400, because I know they're not going to light me up point blank. They're going to pull pistol in close range situations, etc.
Minors? running that hot .. in close quarters... as a field owner and game host, that is in one word.. Negligent. It would never ever happen at my facility, I'm not keen on seeing my livelihood wiped out by some soccer mom suing me because little timmy got his face shot up.
Waivers are not worth the paper they are written on.. I know a personal injury Lawyer.. who said "I've never seen a waiver that I could not get around in court"

The risk is far far different from the perspective of the player vs the venue owner or game host. any one person can choose to risk it.. take that risk and multiply it by the number of players on the field ... and add several zeros.. now you get an idea of the risk to the game host or venue owner.
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Old August 14th, 2012, 12:02   #18
m102404
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The field limits are set by either the field or the host...and they're what they are. That said...both of them can be influenced by constructive feedback by the players, and if they've got their heads screwed on straight they'll take good feedback to heart and make what changes they deem necessary.

In confined areas (i.e. indoor warehouses/close CQB/etc...) 300fps w/ 0.20s is completely sufficient...and you should really be converting to Joules to get a good sense of thing since we're talking about power and force vs. flight time and range of BBs. 350 is something put out there because it is (was) actually hard to find guns that shot under 300. Many shot somewhere between 310-330. The "cap" was put there as a convenience thing so you wouldn't "have" to downgrade your gun.

400 for CQB...sure. With known guys...and you'll get injuries. With new guys and random guys you will get more injuries and hear a lot more crap about it.

But it's ultimately up to the field/host. Personally I think that it's silly/stupid to have public skirmishes at 350+ in tight CQB.

And MED are bullshit. At BEST it'll be observed (and as noted already very often either the field or the situations don't lend themselves well to it). More likely than not MED will fail.

Since you're not going to be able to avert injuries by face shots, MED, etc...you're only controls are FPS, BB weight, protection (googles/masks). Another control often over looked at magazine limits and ammo loadout limits. The amount of "spraying" drops dramatically since there are simply not enough resources to sustain it.
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Old August 14th, 2012, 12:30   #19
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Originally Posted by Brian McIlmoyle View Post
Minors? running that hot .. in close quarters... as a field owner and game host, that is in one word.. Negligent. It would never ever happen at my facility, I'm not keen on seeing my livelihood wiped out by some soccer mom suing me because little timmy got his face shot up.
Waivers are not worth the paper they are written on.. I know a personal injury Lawyer.. who said "I've never seen a waiver that I could not get around in court"

The risk is far far different from the perspective of the player vs the venue owner or game host. any one person can choose to risk it.. take that risk and multiply it by the number of players on the field ... and add several zeros.. now you get an idea of the risk to the game host or venue owner.
The problem with this is, the owner is unfamiliar with airsoft, and only knows what my team and... others, have told him. He's looking to make profit, as are some of the other hosts. That profit is going to go right out the window, because we've spoken to the owner -- his insurance doesn't cover airsoft, it only covers paintball.

It'll be a huge mess if it goes downhill.
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Old August 14th, 2012, 12:40   #20
Brian McIlmoyle
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The problem with this is, the owner is unfamiliar with airsoft, and only knows what my team and... others, have told him. He's looking to make profit, as are some of the other hosts. That profit is going to go right out the window, because we've spoken to the owner -- his insurance doesn't cover airsoft, it only covers paintball.

It'll be a huge mess if it goes downhill.
Profit is not a bad word.. making profit is fine.. but that profit evaporates quickly in the face of unmitigated liability
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Old August 14th, 2012, 16:09   #21
ThunderCactus
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At XT our typical engagement range was 10-40ft back when I used to play
My UMP was 260fps reliably, and it was dead accurate and ranged the whole arena with .20s. Never had any problems with it. It even shot 200ft outdoors, just very slowly lol

FPS means nothing indoors, the extra quarter second it takes for a BB to travel 25 feet between 300 and 400fps is nothing. You can't spot and dodge BBs that fast
And no wind means no need for heavier ammo.
Outside is a whole other game, much different physics due to the addition of extreme ranges and wind.

I used to have noobs that thought a 50fps difference was huge indoors. You don't even feel a 50fps difference when it hits you, let alone in performance lol
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Old August 14th, 2012, 20:50   #22
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Darkdream, thank you for clarifying my concern. I am still trying to decide if I should continue to play after the new rule become effective. It sounds like we are risking too much to play @ 400fps for indoor game. Since most indoor places are using 350 as max, hopefuly we will switch back sometimes.
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Old August 14th, 2012, 22:47   #23
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Over 350 FPS for an indoor game in my opinion is rediculous.

We allow on our OUTDOOR field up to 450 FPS on a .20

That said, for example just our EAST woods is over 4 Acres 156,000 SQ feet. Read that again in cas you missed it, and think about 156,000 sq feet with a CAP of 30 guys. Last game guys vanished within minutes of the horn going.

Add in a bit of wind and vietnam folliage and ya, 450 makes sense.

A 20,000 sq foot "gymnasium" at over 420 FPS>No wind, no folliage WTF?

Have another.

I hope there is "ear protection" in place here as a bb going in at over 420fps will bust an ear canal like twig.
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Old August 14th, 2012, 22:53   #24
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I'm the one hosting the game, so I feel I should contribute to this thread.

The reason I'm allowing 400 indoors is because in Windsor there are simply no other local fields and the vast majority of the new players are in the 15-18 year old range, and have one weapon. There was a recent rule switch that put a hard limit of 350 on guns, which resulted in players with new guns being turned away on their first time out playing. Many of the local regulars have neither the budget nor ability to start swapping out the springs.

It was the old hosts opinion that due to the cheap cost of springs, they just suck it up and downgrade, but the time since then has been a constant slew of people breaking their gun after opening it up for the first time or plain quitting the game.
(We had 2 people that shot in the 355-360 range told they couldn't play their first game after spending a combined $900 on guns.)

The whole incident has created somewhat of a civil war in the Windsor community. There is also the fact that our team is one of several who frequent the field, and the owner is not willing to lose the vast majority of his business to satisfy the requirements of one of our game hosts and a (quite small actually) minority of our players.

As such, I've had to pretty much take over all of the airsoft events held there. I've spent the last week trying to undo the damage this bickering has done to the local player group. If anyone here has any questions or comments, feel free to PM me.

A few notes:
-As I'm trying not to exclude anyone based on their gun, I am allowing very hot guns on the field (<430) but with MEDs greater then 50' and restrictions that would make them pretty much useless considering the layout of the area. The only guns allowed to fire point blank are less then 380, and ammo weight is restricted too.
-The field is semi-auto only.
-As for the age of the players. It is a local paintball field, the owner makes the rules about age restrictions. We have had a pretty rough time over the years with keeping a solid player base. If it wasn't for minors that were attracted to our team through the paintball field, we wouldn't have enough players to even justify booking time.
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Old August 14th, 2012, 23:02   #25
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As a Game host, I dont know what to say. You have so many moving parts to this its pretty messy.

You kind of know this as you posted this above. You have 15 year olds entering the ring in a small place with 420 FPS guns. You understand this is kind of an issue as there are few if any places that allow this INDOOR and this could come back to bite you in the A$$ as the question would come up. Waiver or not. At least with 18 and older it becomes much less complex, but I am sure you are not informing a parent they are putting their kid into a ring with a gun that is shooting at "x". Nor do they even know what "FPS" is.

Honestely while this may not be the best financial advise, it may make more sense to go 18 and older at least?

I dont know....
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Old August 14th, 2012, 23:12   #26
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Originally Posted by Trev140_0 View Post
As a Game host, I dont know what to say. You have so many moving parts to this its pretty messy.

You kind of know this as you posted this above. You have 15 year olds entering the ring in a small place with 420 FPS guns. You understand this is kind of an issue as there are few if any places that allow this INDOOR and this could come back to bite you in the A$$ as the question would come up. Waiver or not. At least with 18 and older it becomes much less complex, but I am sure you are not informing a parent they are putting their kid into a ring with a gun that is shooting at "x"

Honestely while this may not be the best financial advise, it may make more sense to go 18 and older at least?

I dont know....
About 70% of our current players are under 18 (almost all of the new players from this year are). We have about 6-10 regulars that have been playing for multiple years. The demographic in Windsor is quite different then most of our away games, and the play style reflects that. Very light/easygoing skrims.

Guns/players are rated on a case by case basis. There would be no way I would let a 14 year old on with a gun shooting 420. The whole 400+ thing is to satisfy an entirely different team of older players who would prefer to go 400 full auto at point blank. The groups generally don't play together, and when they do MEDs and other limits are put in to ensure everyone's safety.

It's a local shift thats happening where the weekend warriors who would ordinarily be paintballing are now taking up airsoft instead. It's also an attempt to try and draw some of the rogue groups in so they can play in a legal area (and we can charge them to play). There is a lot of backyard airsoft in Windsor we hear about, because like I said in an earlier post, the field is the only field that allows airsoft within an hour and a half drive.

EDIT: Also forgot to mention that we are not a babysitting service. Parents of underage players are required to stick around after signing them in for the first couple games their children play in.
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Last edited by fantastix; August 14th, 2012 at 23:33..
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Old August 14th, 2012, 23:22   #27
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hmmm.

I understand a bit more. Sounds more like "regulars". I did forget that the area is obviously "sub 3 million people GTA".

That said, if I could offer some legal help here, (off record), I would:

1) Make sure the waiver clearly states on the top "by signing this you are waiving certain legal rights" in 3x the font in YELLOW (see court ruling of zip line operator in BC ruling)
2) Have a section acknowledging the FPS limit of the field. A specific spot to initial this.

It will help and costs you nothing.
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Old August 14th, 2012, 23:38   #28
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Originally Posted by fantastix View Post
I'm the one hosting the game, so I feel I should contribute to this thread.

The reason I'm allowing 400 indoors is because in Windsor there are simply no other local fields and the vast majority of the new players are in the 15-18 year old range, and have one weapon. There was a recent rule switch that put a hard limit of 350 on guns, which resulted in players with new guns being turned away on their first time out playing. Many of the local regulars have neither the budget nor ability to start swapping out the springs.

It was the old hosts opinion that due to the cheap cost of springs, they just suck it up and downgrade, but the time since then has been a constant slew of people breaking their gun after opening it up for the first time or plain quitting the game.
(We had 2 people that shot in the 355-360 range told they couldn't play their first game after spending a combined $900 on guns.)
If it was my in that position, I would say "too fucking bad" to them. Either they downgrade their guns or they don't play. You don't have the ability or know-how to downgrade you gun? Pay someone to do it. If you break it that's your own fault, and you shouldn't have been doing it anyway.

There is no excuse for many of the things you explained, and the limit shouldn't be raised because of them.
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Old August 14th, 2012, 23:49   #29
Trev140_0
 
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Originally Posted by DarkDream View Post
The problem with this is, the owner is unfamiliar with airsoft, ....-- his insurance doesn't cover airsoft, it only covers paintball.

.


Ignore what I wrote, my appology for wasting time of some....moving on....
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Old August 14th, 2012, 23:53   #30
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I played a game on Sunday, indoor with a 400FPS limit. I got a few nasty welts, but nothing all that bad.

Then again everyone there was using semi auto and avoiding mag dumping on people at close or point blank range.
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