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Old July 22nd, 2012, 21:53   #91
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From my experience, especially online, there are 'waiver' descriptions stating something very similar to try and protect the retailer liability, i.e. "This is not a toy. If misused this could cause serious injury or death", etc. Unfortunately other than this, there isn't a whole lot that can be done to cover their asses other than forcing a waiver to be signed at the time of purchase. Most retailers don't really want to keep stacks of waivers on hand either though, so it's a double edged sword that one is..

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Originally Posted by HeadlessChicken View Post
Problem is shit don't stick to minors, they can not be held legally responsible because of their age (probably why so many see themselves as invincible at times). And when was the last time you've seen or heard a soccer mom disciplining her child?

Can't retailers have a clause that all legal responsibility ends after selling airsoft guns to 18+ individuals meaning whatever they do with it afterwards like handing it over to a minor, said retailer can't be punished by the law. Doesn't do much to protect the sport but at least it puts more emphasis on the actions of the purchaser. I honestly don't think there is a way to detect straw purchases unless it was in plain sight.
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Old July 22nd, 2012, 22:00   #92
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Kinda re-stating what most have been saying though,it's not age that matters, it's responsibility, tact, and common sense. Unfortunately at my young age I have learned all too well that common sense really isn't all that common, and neither is honor among men. I started in airsoft at 14 when living back in Alberta, but I had a father in the military who was strict as hell and made sure I wasn't screwing around when going to games his coworkers would organize. No matter what age, you'll still have jackasses, but it can also be said that youth and ultimately inexperience can overrule responsibility. Gotta take it how it comes unfortunately.
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Old July 23rd, 2012, 14:57   #93
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Well lets face it. There are many in our country who feel that a bunch of mature people running around shooting each other with anything is quite immature, sadistic or just plain stupid. And what do we say to those people?

Now we have airsofters divided on something that is in the eyes of others completely useless.

Let the kids play. Who cares. I wont go where the environment isn't conducive to what i want to get out of the sport.

Even so i still see "mature" people not calling hits and acting like kids on the field over something that shouldn't matter.

Ive even had adults get pissed at me for not providing them covering fire when i couldn't get my head up longer than a second as we were outnumbered 5 to 2.

So ya age does play a role, but lets not forget that everyone over 18 isn't a guarantee at fair mature play and neither are those under a guarantee for asinine tactics and stupidity.

I love the sense of realism this sport offers. But i certainly don't want to talk about Pokemon cards between rounds.
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Old July 24th, 2012, 00:11   #94
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Oh god....here's my horror story on immaturity and stupidity.

So a while ago, I went to my "local" airsoft store to pick up some parts and some green gas (because I shoot inside my house). So as I was leaving, I see another guy about my age come in (btw that's about 16 years). He is most definitely not 18. He asks to see a WE G39K, the owner's like "OK".

What happens next is that he points it at me. I barely managed to suppress my reflex to grab the barrel, point it away from me, and palm smash his face. (I have crazy fast reflexes BTW)

The next thing he does is WALK OUTSIDE THE STORE AND START POINTING IT AT PEOPLE WALKING BY. At this point, I decide to leave and behind me I can hear the store owner starting to yell at him.

I'm so tempted to say "Kids these days", but he was about my age so all I could say was "Dumbass."
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Old July 24th, 2012, 01:10   #95
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I was 15 when I started playing, no one seemed to give a shit and I never had any issues. I can see wanting to keep minors out for legal issues but I've seen just as many adults act like stupid fucks with airsoft guns as I have minors.
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Old July 24th, 2012, 03:30   #96
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Yup, except adults are allowed to act like "stupid %#$&s", and other adults can properly deal with them. Just because an adult acts stupid has "absolutely nothing" to do with letting a minor play. That isn't a valid point or argument. As it is individuals that make their way, age aside. Everyone is responsible for their own actions, once one turns of age. Until then it is your legal guardians, teachers, authorities, and communities responsibility for your safety, education, and general well being. So, as a "truly mature" youth, you'd have a very understanding grasp of the legal and safety impacts of the sport. And how the politics of letting minors play takes chances that can hurt the sport for everyone if something bad were to happen. But as a youth if you are pressing to be allowed to play to make yourself feel better, you've proven that you don't understand. This doesn't make someone a bad youth, it just reinforces that they yet lack the maturity and experience to make an informed decision. Being eighteen does not make someone mature, but you've now had an acceptable amount of time to get to where you need to be, and are now legally and morally responsible for your own actions. Which by the way is "very" important. So hopefully you spent your time chasing educational, and healthy pursuits (ya, right!), and not things you want like airsoft.

I believe the reasonable compromise would be something like, but not exact to this: Everyone under the age of majority "must" play in a designated game area amongst their own peers only. They will be supervised by game host trained staff, as well as their parents/guardians. FPS "will" be regulated to be at a "non-dangerous" level strictly (for instance 300FPS or less). All players "must and will" wear all appropriate safety gear; i.e. Boots with at least 6" ankle support. Full face shields with ballistic and or CSA/ANSI ratings (all face wear must cover the eyes, mouth, nose, ears, and temple in full). All players will wear a full neck guard. All airsoft guns used by individuals under the age of eighteen "must and will" have "obvious" identifiers as to separate it without a doubt from any possible real firearm counterpart. Etc, etc, etc.

Just like "any" other sport in this country played by minors.
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Old July 24th, 2012, 14:04   #97
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Yup, except adults are allowed to act like "stupid %#$&s", and other adults can properly deal with them. Just because an adult acts stupid has "absolutely nothing" to do with letting a minor play. That isn't a valid point or argument. As it is individuals that make their way, age aside. Everyone is responsible for their own actions, once one turns of age. Until then it is your legal guardians, teachers, authorities, and communities responsibility for your safety, education, and general well being. So, as a "truly mature" youth, you'd have a very understanding grasp of the legal and safety impacts of the sport. And how the politics of letting minors play takes chances that can hurt the sport for everyone if something bad were to happen. But as a youth if you are pressing to be allowed to play to make yourself feel better, you've proven that you don't understand. This doesn't make someone a bad youth, it just reinforces that they yet lack the maturity and experience to make an informed decision. Being eighteen does not make someone mature, but you've now had an acceptable amount of time to get to where you need to be, and are now legally and morally responsible for your own actions. Which by the way is "very" important. So hopefully you spent your time chasing educational, and healthy pursuits (ya, right!), and not things you want like airsoft.

I believe the reasonable compromise would be something like, but not exact to this: Everyone under the age of majority "must" play in a designated game area amongst their own peers only. They will be supervised by game host trained staff, as well as their parents/guardians. FPS "will" be regulated to be at a "non-dangerous" level strictly (for instance 300FPS or less). All players "must and will" wear all appropriate safety gear; i.e. Boots with at least 6" ankle support. Full face shields with ballistic and or CSA/ANSI ratings (all face wear must cover the eyes, mouth, nose, ears, and temple in full). All players will wear a full neck guard. All airsoft guns used by individuals under the age of eighteen "must and will" have "obvious" identifiers as to separate it without a doubt from any possible real firearm counterpart. Etc, etc, etc.

Just like "any" other sport in this country played by minors.
wtf? I just joined this site and it sounds like lots of immaturity in this thread
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Old July 24th, 2012, 14:56   #98
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Actually Brian M hit the nail on the head it is an issue of venue and nothing more. As a player you may not like to play with younger players, so you go to a different venue, no different that if you do not like the game style or type at a field.

Waivers must be signed by the guardian for anyone under 19, so no difference there. Although in BC with the various changes, the waivers changed a lot last year for all sports.

As for gear etc that is the Field owners responsibility to set and enforce, so any posts about eye protection etc are irrelevant.

Example our field allows any player from 14 up, all players must wear goggles with a full seal, anyone under 19 must wear field approved lower face protection. Don't like it leave.

We solved the drop off issue some fields have had with younger players, by requiring the parents to stay at the field for the 1st 4 days the younger players attend games. It also allows us to eject any problem kids right away, has not happened yet.

After that they are fine to leave, but must reachable, people do get hurt tripping falling etc.
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Old July 24th, 2012, 17:44   #99
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Originally Posted by Ricochet View Post
Yup, except adults are allowed to act like "stupid %#$&s", and other adults can properly deal with them.
So... legal issue, like I said.
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Old July 24th, 2012, 17:51   #100
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in about 2 months none of this will matter....all the kids will be back in school anyway
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Old July 24th, 2012, 19:23   #101
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Who said we (being the underagers) can't play on weekends and holidays?

On that note, I'm sure that most people playing airsoft around age 18 are in college/uni or even still in high school....
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Old July 24th, 2012, 19:33   #102
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On the whole, I have no problem playing with someone strictly because of their age. As stated previously, there are people under the age of eighteen that have shown incredible sportsmanship, talent, and maturity. Not to mention that those people "will" be the future if this sport, and that guidance and education is the best course of action. A waiver is fine when your signing it for yourself. And as far as a guardian goes they may not understand the sport they are allowing their kids to play. There is no regulatory league or commission to have a provincial or federally recognized rules for minors either, like in hockey. For example, there is no hitting in hockey until a certain age range. Those rules were regulatory brought in to protect the youth. Remember in elementary school when you were playing football or rugby on your lunch hour, and would get in trouble for playing tackle? You had to play touch, because of the liability to the school if you got hurt.

My point being is that the youth are not the problem. Everyone asks or argues about the legal ramifications, or the negative impact that might happen to the sport. Well; there it is in the proverbial nutshell. If you run an Airsoft field, I'll assume you have safety rules in place (hopefully). These rules would encompass everyone, not just those under eighteen. Now your rules may "adequate" to protect everyone, but who says they are? As an adult if my eye gets shot out, it's more than likely my own fault. It won't be even a big deal (circumstances dependent of course). But if the same happens to a youth, they personally won't be blamed, and that waiver their parent/guardian signed won't mean squat. Now, if there was strict regulations in place that are universally recognized and accepted by the government, and the sane thing happens; you can then prove that all safety precautions were followed to all reasonable levels, due diligence was followed, and that although the incident was tragic; the situation was unavoidable and unfortunate.

Name one organized sport in this country played by under age persons, that does not have all the prior in place?

This is starting to sound like I hate kids and teenagers, lol. That is simply not the case. I feel that safety, legal responsibility, all reasonable measures being taken "is" paramount. Maybe it's time that something like that is set-up so that those underage can participate. The sport needs no black eyes in this country, and the ASC age verification standard is something I believe in.
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Old July 24th, 2012, 20:27   #103
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i think the other thing is that host's/ field owners dont want to deal with parents well more so the soccer moms. If a kid gets hurt wether its a broken bone or just a scratch,the kid may not think much of it you know shit happens on well. The parents however may think other wise. But if someone is 18+ host's/owners dont really need to worry about it. good example i was at flagswipe ate shit down the hill banged up my arm a bit tossed some duct tape on it and was good to go. So really host's/owners dont really want to have to deal with angry/upset parents....they have enough going on during an event.
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Old July 25th, 2012, 05:50   #104
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Old July 25th, 2012, 11:42   #105
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Just as an example which isn't going to justify any minors at any games as I believe these kids are an extreme exception:

We have a guy on our field who uses airsoft to spend time with and bond with his two kids. They're 12-14 years old, armed to the gills and a lot of fun to play with. Hell, one of the kids was my fire team partner at one point and he's an evil little ninja.

They and their father are all players who are well aware of the risks and understand the inherent dangers of the sport and they all conduct themselves safely. In fact, as an administrator of the local club, I have had more problems with members of the local reserve unit than these kids. Despite that, would they be permitted on field without their dad? No, absolutely not. It's not that we don't trust those kids or think they immature. But no one on the field except their father can or will take legal responsibility for them.

Hear that? It's not maturity. It's legal responsibility. LEGAL RESPONSIBILITY.

LEGAL RESPONSIBILITY *could drone on, repeating this forever, stupid motherfuckers are always going to whine about maturity*

Are we understanding it yet? It's not about maturity. Liability does not care if you're as wise as Mahatma Gandhi or as dim-witted as Paris Hilton. Your maturity is completely fucking irrelevant.
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