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Event Attendance: No Shows and Bails, discussion.

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Old July 6th, 2005, 17:43   #106
MadMorbius
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceman
Ok well guys, no offence, but i have no place for a car in my life, nor the money to invest in the car, the insurance and the parking tickets.

Renting a car requires a Credit Card and a one-day rental must usually requires a reservation and cash down at least 48hrs during weekends, or you are stuck with a 80$perday car selection... don't know about you'all.. but that's just not acceptable.

As for not buying it, sorry mate, but it's happened to me in more then one occasion. Had to return home, PM the organisation and say 'Sorry, my lift bailed'.

I hate to be the black sheep of this thing... but if all you guys can come up with is the responces that were just posted... you're really... seriously... not helping this conversation.

I'm sorry, but as Scarecrow said above your method of transportation to the field is not the organizer's problem. If you confirmed for a game, then you're confirmed. That means you're POSITIVE you can attend. If you're relying on someone else, maybe you should use the old "HAXOR + 3" method...that way, if HAXOR ( The driver) bails, it's his rep.
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Old July 6th, 2005, 18:40   #107
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I think it's ridiculous to require 100% guarantee's that you will make the game. What if you own a car and it happens to break down, or suffer an accident, or get stolen? You're supposed to spend $100 on a cab to the field? And what if you were giving someone else a lift? Does each member of your team drive there own car so that one breakdown can't affect more than one person? Or what if your wife, who was going to look after the kids, gets really sick at the last minute?

Car's break down. People get sick. Shit happens. The thing that's the REAL problem is people who just change their mind at the last minute. Don't feel like going. Wife talked them out of it, etc. This kind of stuff is unacceptable in my opinion. Not real accidents. If 1 or 2 people cancel on a game due to unforseen stuff, but all the other people who just decided to go swimming or whatever the hell actually showed up, things would be fine. It's the "confimed but found something better" people who really concern me.

If you say you're going to go, you're confirmed, do your best and follow through. If something serious happens, fair enough, but people are counting on you so show some respect.
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Oh wow, im speechless. Crowbars and shovels... back to lurking then.
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Old July 6th, 2005, 18:45   #108
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i do believe the whole point of this discussion wasnt to cover the legimate reasons that people dont show up but to address the confirmed but dont show up without so much as a courtesy post...in 3 days.

no one here is refuting legitamate reasons for not making a game. but mature people participating in a mature sport can at least pm or post an apology or an explanation to the host. that would be a mature action.
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Old July 6th, 2005, 18:46   #109
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I am talking CHRONIC.

Yes, I understand it happens... now and again. But there are those who are CHRONIC and the pattern is obvious. There are those who use that excuse far too often for it to be true, especially when you see them signed up for another game and then they attend that game.
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Old July 6th, 2005, 18:50   #110
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That kind of shit makes for player's I won't invite to my games. I've actually had members of my team attend two different games on the same day because some of us had already signed up for one game when another ( admittedly better, lol) game was announced. The rest of the team then signed up for the better game. But you are right, you're making a commitment and you need to do your best to honour it.
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Oh wow, im speechless. Crowbars and shovels... back to lurking then.
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Old July 7th, 2005, 13:36   #111
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Hey, for those of you that are needing a reliable ride, I'm selling a van cheap... just needs a new windshield and something done to the rotor thingies to pass the safety (passed an etest already).
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Old July 8th, 2005, 02:22   #112
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I'm glad to see a lot of input on this. Thankyou Scarecrow and the wolfpack guys for backing us up on this. Atreyu stayed over at my place the night before we headed up there so that we could put together the props and go over the objectives for each team.

We periodically and obsessively checked the game thread and the forums up until the time we got in the car and left to go down to the field. We kept an updated list of attendees that we were expecting. Time and effort was put into getting at least a ballpark figure of attendees. As far as we knew, we expected 41 players on Saturday morning. About 20 of those people showed. We got the impression that these people saw this game as a backup plan rather than an commitment.
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Old July 8th, 2005, 04:24   #113
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Make the no shows plan the next game.
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Old July 8th, 2005, 04:31   #114
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hahahah...then you have 40 people mowing their lawns on that day
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Old July 10th, 2005, 10:55   #115
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Ok, I've been over the thread and I feel like adding my (late) two cents.

I am now siting in front of my computer on a fine sunny sunday morning where I should be at a game I had garanteed I would attend to. But for reasons beyond my control, I'm not. I know the guy who's setting this game up will be upset, because he is taking time and ressources to make that game happen.

I feel bad about this. Why ? Because even though I am not "responsible" for my non-attendance, I always do whatever I can to stand up for my word. But this time I could'nt do it and it's a shame. But since I also agree with Scarecrow ("not host's problem"), I think a potential solution must be devised as to take those conditions (namely a) shit happens and b) not host's problem) into consideration.

So I end up looking at the two general propositions made to address the issue of non-attendance. I don't want to look deeply into each, but here are some thoughts.

1) Formal feedback system.

At first I was suspicious about it for the same reasons most people on this thread mentionned. Possible abuse, unfairness for the casual and/or low profile player, etc. I think Spleen idea on focusing on ratio of attendance is even better. Combined with Iceman's suggestion to kind of "hide" the first few feedbacks, not publicly stating the rating up to a certain game count, could make it better (assuming someone will want to go out of his or her way to actually implement something reliable and safe). Now I'm just plain unconvinced. I feel this is too complex and requiring too much ressources a solution compared to the benefits.

2) Prepaid attendance.

This I think is the best possible solution, if only because it's simple. Having to pay X amount of money or X+Y at the door is not unfair or greedy IMO. It's just like telling the host that I'll be there, yet if I don't, I still thank him for taking the time to putting a game together and giving me an opportunity to play. Just to bad if I don't. Maybe an optionnal yearly fee ? That's host choice. People would not post their pseudo-attendance as freely. Host would be less bitter about no-shows, and player would feel less guilty about not showing up. I would even go as far as saying that it would be sort of a rating system in itself.

The tradeoffs with this are that game attendance count (on ASC, for instance) would rise more slowly and announced attendees figures would not be as big. But I wonder how much of an issue that really is. Is it better to get to a game where you tought 80 people would attend and discover 27 or get to a game where 35 people are expected and get thirty? I leave this question open for your ideas.

I'm not saying every game on every field should start doing that. It's rather a common sense thing: a quick squirmish day should keep it simple and be prepared to deal with a vastly fluctuating number of attendees. Yet I'd be quite prepared and willing to comply with those who would decide to charge upfront.

FWIW. Cheers.
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Old July 10th, 2005, 11:23   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sgt_Lynch
Heh... good luck getting me on any rating system. I've made arangements to start playing again this year. But if work calls, Airsoft goes on the backburner... it's simply a matter of priorities.

I can understand the frustration of organizers to find half the field bailing with no explanation, but as a player... I've shown up to games that had been cancelled... and never got any notification. Kinda fucked up to drive for an hour to find out theres no game. So, as everything it works both ways.

Airsoft is recreational. Not some regimented Goverment controled requirement like doing your taxes. If it was.... wouldn't be much fun. Shit happens, people don't show up... move on.
Here here!

No offence intended, but most (if not all) of the beaureaucratic "solutions" proffered are unworkable.

If an organizer has a financial investment that he needs to have covered due to the purchase of supplies, props, rental of property, etc. then the organizer should simply institue mandatory prepayment with no refund, period.

There'a an old saying that I'll paraphrase here; Flake out once, shame on you. Flake out twice, shame on me.

Edit: A side note - In the case of the games organized by large, close knit teams, there may be an artificially high expectation being assumed by the organizers. If you have a highly disciplined team, and base your expectations of the general public on your existing expectations of people you practice and play with regularly, you are setting yourself up for dissapointment. Some people enjoy regimented formal structure in their recreational activities, some people don't. Neither is right nor wrong in the grand scheme of things.
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Old July 10th, 2005, 12:28   #117
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I think you're overplaying the 'regimented beaurocratic' element of this. It can be simple if done properly, and its the host that takes the attendence and decides if something is a bail or legitimate last minute cancel and can mark it as such. The odd emergency isn't going to push your ratio into the red zone is also overplayed.

But even if you have a good reason, it still does not negate the fact that if you did not inform the host, and withdraw your attendence by posting as such, regardless of how noble your reason, its still leaves the host and the rest of the players one less player without notice. If you do it consistently and repeatedly, its the same as bailing without a good reason - you're simply unreliable.

I've personally never cancelled a game without significant notification to players. In fact, my games go rain or shine unless its really obvious that the weather will preclude playing well in advance. I can't speak for others but if a host does that, I'd never sign up for his games. Quid-pro-quo.

Sorry, but I see whole hockey teams make it to practice consistently at 5am and play league at 10pm at night - and consistently show in order to support their teams. The idea that its somehow so difficult to commit and show and therefore there should be no obligation to fulfill your word when you post to attend, and that is somehow acceptable and should be considered business as usual keeps airsoft where it is today and will continue to keep it there - a marginal sport.
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Old July 10th, 2005, 12:43   #118
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Well I've been debating on how much I would say in regards to this thread.

I choose to say this. It is time for the Airsofters (Ontario for now btw) to start following a specific set of rules...I have proposed to several different people a round table discussion bringing together the CO's of the team and the leaders/representatives of the independent players (There are more of you then those that make up the teams) and we all sit down put the collective egos aside and set the damn rules we will all follow and agree to abide. We could toss it under the OASA name or something else the rest of the community desires this organization to be called. That’s not the point.

The point is:

Tracking of AS games (Including individual attendance and lack thereof)

Buy Sell user rating systems

A set of rules that will apply to all fields all the time.

A registry of those in this association, org or whatever it's called of the weapons they PLAY with and what they are Chronied at (Upgrades and changes should be informed so that the new FPS/X.Xgram can be recorded)

Obviously there would be more issues that's just the short short list.

Face it boys and girls we will be getting more media attention sooner rather than later and the longer we futz around in getting our collective asses organized the harder it will be to handle any outside situations. I know there are many who have... how shall I say this?...poor diplomatic relations with others in the community. tough shite... we all play and we all have to put the old crap aside and come to some sort of operational agreement going...we have to organize what we do. As someone pointed out in this thread you can count the hosts of the majority of the games on two hands. We can easily track the attendance of games just between this limited number of hosts/hosting team and it's taken 7+ pages to say that people flaking on games are bad, something should be done and then tossing ideas comments and segways. This is not an efficient way to solve the problems. I will be having a member of the SnowDragons that you all know and love to shoot contacting people in September to arrange this round table...and I will be starting a thread for adding subject matter to this discussion and have begun to book a facility for us to sit together on neutral ground and make this happen.

Let’s stop wasting time, let us act and do this together as a community.
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Old July 10th, 2005, 13:00   #119
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I am not married to the OASA specifically but I agree, we need something *like* this. Those who have been in the community 3+ years will shake their heads and say 'not again' because this call comes around with about that frequency. I think this time around though you've got more hosts, and you've got more fields trying to appeal to all airsofters and therefore need some standards by which they will operate. This doesn't preclude private games and such, but, it gives public events a set of 'defaults' by which to operate from a point of view of safety and organization. That can only make things better IMHO.
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Old July 10th, 2005, 13:37   #120
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I have to make 2 points even though it's going to step on some toes.

1. This is starting to sound like "league paintball"
2. I don't beleive in the firearms registry. Why should I buy into an airsoft registry?

If it wasn't me saying it, it would be someone else, so dont judge the questions based on who's asking them.
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