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Event Attendance: No Shows and Bails, discussion.

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Old July 5th, 2005, 22:12   #76
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Heh... good luck getting me on any rating system. I've made arangements to start playing again this year. But if work calls, Airsoft goes on the backburner... it's simply a matter of priorities.

I can understand the frustration of organizers to find half the field bailing with no explanation, but as a player... I've shown up to games that had been cancelled... and never got any notification. Kinda fucked up to drive for an hour to find out theres no game. So, as everything it works both ways.

Airsoft is recreational. Not some regimented Goverment controled requirement like doing your taxes. If it was.... wouldn't be much fun. Shit happens, people don't show up... move on.
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Old July 5th, 2005, 22:26   #77
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I've notice some people suggest dropping the whole Tentative listing.

As a person who posts tenative before confirming, I think that would be a really bad thing. Me and my buddies usually don't have a good idea if we can make it about a week before the game, and since a lot of the big ones set up Months in advanced we put Tentative so the organizer knows we are very interested in comming, but need to figure things out first.

Though in the Organizers favour I think a cut off date should be placed for all Tenatatives to confirm. I've seen it a few times, but more organizers should make it a custom to use the method.

Also, in regards to the Prepay Idea, I think it should only be necassary at bigger events. Though people do go through some troubles to Oraganize the weekly Flag Raiders, or Sgt Splatters, it would be a nightmare to constantly collect oney for that (Gotta go somewhere, edit the rest when I get pack)
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Old July 5th, 2005, 22:48   #78
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Why does the proposed Player Rating System have to have both positives and negatives? In a sport based on honour and respect, those that we would deem to be positive qualities (integrity, honesty, respect) are to be expected as a bare minimum, not rewarded as if they were something extra special.

No, I think the best way to implement such as system would be "negatives only" - players who say that they will show up and actually do aren't heroes, they're just living up to the minimum respect and responsibility that is required of them.

Those who say they'll show and then on a rare occasion bail without a reasonable excuse or some forewarning to organizers should be given a chance to redeem themselves - because face it, sometimes real life takes precedence at the last moment.

Those who chronically bail should be encouraged to find elsewhere to play, and if they've stiffed a few organizers in the past, that knowledge may help someone else who's about to get stiffed in the future.

I don't see this as a bad idea. People should be held accountable for their actions and words (or lack thereof).

As an aside, Spleen, I feel the need to add that I'm disappointed and somewhat offended that you would generalize that teammates on the larger, more established teams would take advantage of such a system:

"after every game, all the Salamander Army players ( for example, or Wolfpack, or Bad Karma, etc ) would go and give each other positive ratings, so we'd each get +5 per game, plus all of our regular buddies on the teams we play with".

I don't know about the majority of Ontario or Quebec, but that's not the way myself or my teammates operate out West, and I know my boys out East wouldn't do that, either. Again, maybe this spawns from the concept that integrity and personal honor are something to be rewarded, not expected as a normal behaviour. I can only assume that your comment was made to address the concern potential abuses of the system, and not assume that everyone on an established team would automatically choose to abuse it.
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Old July 5th, 2005, 23:45   #79
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The number of people that run games regularly in Ontario can be counter on 2 hands, maybe another foot if you need to. If you chronic problem players, let eachother know.

I suggest those hosts that are having a problem with attendance enforce a non-refundable deposit. If someone is perenially dropping out, make a list, check it twice... let them know they're getting less welcome next time they sign up.

You will accomplish alot more with that, faster and more easily, than with a ratings system that is probably never going to get made or implemented fully or properly. The KISS principle is in effect.

Whisper_kill pointed out he's already doing some sort of deposit... maybe others should try that approach first if they have concerns about attendance.
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Old July 5th, 2005, 23:51   #80
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The number of people that run games regularly in Ontario can be counter on 2 hands, maybe another foot if you need to. If you chronic problem players, let eachother know.

I suggest those hosts that are having a problem with attendance enforce a non-refundable deposit. If someone is perenially dropping out, make a list, check it twice... let them know they're getting less welcome next time they sign up.

You will accomplish alot more with that, faster and more easily, than with a ratings system that is never going to get made or implemented fully or properly. The KISS principle is in effect.

Whisper_kill pointed out he's already doing some sort of deposit... maybe others should try that approach first if they have concerns about attendance.
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Old July 6th, 2005, 00:18   #81
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I appreciate the concerns over favoratism in player ratings. I think its valid that you can only give someone a rating if you actually played with him/her. Also, I think I would make it so that you get 1 positive per game played, regardless of the number of positives given to you for that game. A positive and a negative would co-exist on the same game, and regardless of the number of negatives it would be a max of one point per game either way. If more than one person had issue with the player in question, the comment entries would indicate it. Hecx you could make the positive a default, and it only gets countered with a negative (guess that would be the same as a negative-only system).

Dispute resolution is up to the two or more individuals at odds with one another.

The rating system isn't so much about accumulating positives, but, then again, why should not someone who attends a lot of games accumulate a lot of positive ratings if he/she deserves them? What is wrong with that? And it also indicates that the person is consistently reliable and plays without a hassle - this is good to know for all of us.

Either way, it would provide a very public place where misbehaviour is identified and quite immediately. My thinking is that it would help cause corrective action to occur much earlier in an airsofter's playing career as opposed to accumulating a ton of crappy games and by that time the person is beyond redemption in the eyes of a lot of people in the community.

Why shouldn't negative behaviours be addressed in such a system? People can already engage in online character assasination, and it happens now and again, but not regularly because ultimately you still need to co-exist to play. Those same impulses and motivations are there regardless of this system. Its just with this system its a little more clear and immediate.
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Old July 6th, 2005, 00:22   #82
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Non-refundable entry fees, however minimum one week notice to cancel and recieve a refund because things can happen. A ratings system is just asking for abuse and complaints.
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Old July 6th, 2005, 01:15   #83
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sorry for stating the obvious but God forbid that people grow up and actually show some consideration. how old do you have to be to have social skills??? *sigh* common courtesy must have been tossed out along with 95% deet muskol :sad:
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Old July 6th, 2005, 07:51   #84
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Well, a simple start would be for the event organiser/host to simply and not punatively publish the list of actuall attendee's. It would not be belittling to the people who didn't show, rather it would give kudo's to those who did.

IMO, as far as tentatives go, a lot of players sign up as tentatives simply to have a spot if and when the numbers get large enough for thier liking, and to wait and see if thier friends sign up. I have actually had people admit this to me. This is particularly rude to a person organizing a game with a player cap. I'm sorry but if you don't know until last minute... don't post until last minute. A few players always post that they are out at the last minute. So, the opposite effect is true. Personally, at furure games I host, I won't be adding tentatives to the list. You're in or you're not.

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Old July 6th, 2005, 11:11   #85
Brian McIlmoyle
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The whole point

Of compiling lists of people who are confirmed is to build the list of people who will be there.

posting "tentative" is a waste of keystrokes and helps no one. No one cares if "maybe" you will come.... the entire world "maybe" will come.

In addition posting that you would like to but can't... Jeez.. got nothing better to do?

Build the expectation that attendance posts are for *confirmed* players only. Tentative and , oh I would like to... posts should be deleted.

may take a bit of help from the mods.... but if all extraneous posts are purged, then you may end up with a viable list.

In the after action report, post the full list, and note who "flaked" with a simple (no show) after their name.

This coupled with a "prepaid confirmation" for most and "credit" extended to "solid attenders" should induce the attitude change desired.
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Old July 6th, 2005, 12:20   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ATREYU
Well, a simple start would be for the event organiser/host to simply and not punatively publish the list of actuall attendee's. It would not be belittling to the people who didn't show, rather it would give kudo's to those who did.

IMO, as far as tentatives go, a lot of players sign up as tentatives simply to have a spot if and when the numbers get large enough for thier liking, and to wait and see if thier friends sign up. I have actually had people admit this to me. This is particularly rude to a person organizing a game with a player cap. I'm sorry but if you don't know until last minute... don't post until last minute. A few players always post that they are out at the last minute. So, the opposite effect is true. Personally, at furure games I host, I won't be adding tentatives to the list. You're in or you're not.

My 2 pence!
Some very interesting points there. Most importantly is the point you made that some people post tentative to see what the numbers will be like.

This is something that I just dont get. One of the best games Ive ever been to were with a small number of people. I just dont get it. When I post tenatives, its because

1) Id like to go to the event.
but
a ) I have to confirm with work schedules
or b ) I have to confirm with a ride
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Old July 6th, 2005, 12:28   #87
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I don't see a problem with tentative if it's for a valid reason based on ride, work schedule or health. Because you might find something better to do is not a valid reason.
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Old July 6th, 2005, 12:33   #88
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[ Some very interesting points there. Most importantly is the point you made that some people post tentative to see what the numbers will be like.

This is something that I just dont get. One of the best games Ive ever been to were with a small number of people. I just dont get it. When I post tenatives, its because

1) Id like to go to the event.
but
a ) I have to confirm with work schedules
or b ) I have to confirm with a ride[/QUOTE]


So why not post, confirmed when you have confirmed your schedule is open, and your ride confirmed?
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Old July 6th, 2005, 12:42   #89
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Consider this an OVERSIMPLIFIED example to the tentative thing:
A customer calls a business and asks the proprietor if he has an item. When the proprietor says he has one left, the customer asks him to hold that particular product, and that he will be in to buy it later on in the day. Now, minutes later a customer comes into the store looking to buy that one last item, and the proprietor says he is sold out. Now the first customer never shows and the proprietor is left with a product and no revenue for it. He had a chance to sell it.

Granted, in that situation, there are MANY things that could have been done alternatively, but the basic concept illustrates my point. A person posts tentative and when a person doesn't show, the host is left with less numbers, and is possibly out for recovering costs they may have needed to recupe for expenses.
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Old July 6th, 2005, 12:57   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian McIlmoyle
So why not post, confirmed when you have confirmed your schedule is open, and your ride confirmed?
Precisely.

Tentative was not a problem a couple years ago when one or two people did that who were known to the hosts and were just passing along informal information about their status.

However, lately "tentative" has become an official status. I've seen games where 50% of the listed individuals are tentative and those saying tentative nobody has even met before. Tentative is no longer meaningful as a result.
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