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Old July 12th, 2005, 23:19   #151
Agit-Prop
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I'm not sure I should post this because it can very easily be interpreted as inflamatory. That being said, I do know that I am not the only one who has these feelings. So, I will go ahead with the risk of this turning the discussion for the worse. If you are offended by what I am about to say, I would like you to wait before you respond, and recognize that I am trying to position this as carefully and clearly as I can. The following are my opinions, and as such cannot be defined or described as objective.

I understand and accept the benefits that an association would have when it comes to securing new venues. I think that part of my discomfort (right or wrong) comes from the predominance of people who seem to be solely milsim oriented in the current make-up of the association. While there are a good number of people who enjoy hardcore milsim in the community, a majority of those people primarily engage in casual game days with multiple mini-scenarios. My fear is that any decisions in this association will be biased heavily towards milsim and large scale gaming, when the reality is that this represents a minority of airsoft play in Ontario.

In addition, the perception is there that the OASA is merely an extension of Wolfpack. It is your baby, Jay, and the only other names I have seen tied to OASA in any official capacity are also Wolfpack members. There is an unfortunate history of antagonism between elements of the Ontario community and Wolfpack. This is (in my opinion) based on a perception of eliteism. It is my feeling that the resistance you have been experiencing with talks of an association is very closely related to the Wolfpack factor.

So, there it is. Unfortunately I don't have a workable solution I can offer.
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Old July 12th, 2005, 23:24   #152
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Is snowdragons an extension of wolfpack too?


I don't see why people are getting so angry about this. If you don't want an association no one is forcing you to signup. But it will be good if you want to:

1) play on more than one field
2) have money to build/buy props
3) have a team (by team I mean the board members) that is always looking for new fields
4) have someone that is always organizing games for you

And I doubt Jay is saying he wants to be the president of this association or anyone from wolfpack. The board is ELECTED.

How hard would it be to make a poll and find out what people want?
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Old July 12th, 2005, 23:29   #153
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I understand what Agit was saying. And it's not that people feel that they HAVE to sign up per se, it's more that it's seeming like an entity that's trying to consume everything, and is more serious than many people want to get with a hobby. And yes, there is an impression that Wolfpack/Snowdragons are trying to run the show. I'm NOT saying they ARE trying to, just that since they're the ones who seem to be organizing this entire operation, it SEEMS that way. I do see the plus side to this, but I also see where others are coming from, as I am of a like mind to some degree.

My stance is that I would like to see a full written proposition of what the association wants, and what they plan on doing before I make a move either way. Something concrete and tangible, not just some tenative ideas.
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Old July 12th, 2005, 23:30   #154
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Jay and I had discussed this at one point. I believe he said he would be more than willing to let someone else run the show. Or at least, an elected group.

I don't want anyone taking what Tom said the wrong way as his point is valid. The larger the group, the easier it is to see them involved in things and the more involved, the more it appears they are in control. But I also don't want people to think that Jay's only motivation is to further some Wolfpack directive. I'm sure whomever was in charge of such an association would do their best to distance themselves from any team or group affiliation. Whether it be ASC, Wolfpack, Snowdragons, or the Oompa Loompas.
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Old July 12th, 2005, 23:34   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gandar
And yes, there is an impression that Wolfpack/Snowdragons are trying to run the show. I'm NOT saying they ARE trying to, just that since they're the ones who seem to be organizing this entire operation, it SEEMS that way.

Those are the only 2 teams that have fields at the moment besides FR and Wasaga. And they are not running the show. Why can't you people read? They want to elect board members. They are suggesting the idea because they don't want to be the only ones running the show. As of now Scarecrow is running the plantation, and zeonprime is running the dragon ops field. So you can either leave it that way or you can include the rest of the community.
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Old July 12th, 2005, 23:38   #156
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As I said, I understand the premise of what is trying to be done, and I agree with it, I'm playing Devil's Advocate and trying to better explain how some people are feeling.

I KNOW that they're not trying to create some 'soft-tatorship or something, and I do like the concept of having an organization or group type thing, though I'm thinking that if there is a board of directors type thing, that they simply present issues and discuss things, and that decisions are still made as a group election of ALL the people in the association, not just the board. So as to have everyone's be voice heard.
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Old July 12th, 2005, 23:44   #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NewBie
If you don't want an association no one is forcing you to signup.
This is where the real potential for this to fail comes from. Remember that the acceptance of any organization is based on the perceptions of the potential constituants. If people generally perceive (rightly or wrongly) a team affiliation, or an eliteism, or a focus that they have little to no interest in, then they will not sign up.

So, what does this result in?

If people who have these feelings won't sign up. The membership could be stacked through the attrition of those who have those concerns.
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Old July 13th, 2005, 00:05   #158
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I feel that what Jay and other "veterans of airsoft" are trying to do with an "association" simply makes sense from many perspectives and will help progress the game of airsoft in Ontario and how games are managed.

I have no association with WolfPack (in fact you could say I am on the wrong end of the muzzle with them), but politics aside, Jay has been one of the most active members of the community since I've started playing. If public perception of this endeavour is that it is a WolfPack initiative and another means to dominate airsoft in Ontario then I think someone else should step up to the plate and show us a creative initiative to take airsoft to a new heightened level. Jay has gone out of his way to ensure that the OASA and any fields associated with it are team independent.

The process seems pretty simple to me. Nominate someone you feel would be an asset to the OASA board. If they are qualified, I'm sure they would find themselves an elected member of the OASA team, and thus dispell the conspiracy theory that this is some kind WolfPack "master plan".

OASA is a good idea. In fact, Jay, I may need to utilize your "template" for a potential sand pit north of Bowmanville. Wow... does that ever make life much easier! I don't need to start from scratch, I can tap into the OASA resources!! Brilliant!

PM me when you have time Jay, regarding the template.
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Old July 13th, 2005, 00:08   #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agit-Prop
Quote:
Originally Posted by NewBie
If you don't want an association no one is forcing you to signup.
This is where the real potential for this to fail comes from. Remember that the acceptance of any organization is based on the perceptions of the potential constituants. If people generally perceive (rightly or wrongly) a team affiliation, or an eliteism, or a focus that they have little to no interest in, then they will not sign up.

So, what does this result in?

If people who have these feelings won't sign up. The membership could be stacked through the attrition of those who have those concerns.

But not everyone has that concern. Only a certain amount of people view WP in a certain way for whatever reason. And this was never a WP discussion to begin with. I and many other WP members found out about it through ASC. It is between those who are organizing games.

The association doesn't have to be milsim based. I don't think anyone suggested that. All they are trying to do is use the association to find new fields, raise money for props, and organize the way we play. I'm pretty sure if you signup and run for the election you could be on that board of directors. You can decide what happens and what doesn't happen and you won't have to worry about a team or 2 running the show.

Wouldn't you like to play on a field similar to FR,but without paint? And better than that you can use it whenever you want, nd you won't have to wait for paintballers? Whats wrong with that? Scarecrpw said let someone else handle the marketing etc... so where did you get the perception that wolfpack wants to take over this association?
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Old July 13th, 2005, 00:16   #160
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To sorta bounce off of Agit, I think a lot of us "independant players" feel we will be overshadowed by the big teams.

Yes we may have one of two indpendandt members in the association, but they may not truly represent all of us.
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Old July 13th, 2005, 00:32   #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shugart
To sorta bounce off of Agit, I think a lot of us "independant players" feel we will be overshadowed by the big teams.

Yes we may have one of two indpendandt members in the association, but they may not truly represent all of us.
But we all go the same games. The same FR games, the same Wasaga games - there's a different perspective from the players, independant or otherwise - and those who actually host those games and events.

All that's really being said is that if you like those sorts of games above, and like to enjoy those same sort of standards at future games on potential fields, an elected association will ensure that these baseline requirements are met everytime - so you don't have to worry about wondering WTF and just enjoy the day.

Leverage your resources. We've been doing this sport in the GTA since 97' - shouldn't it be a little easier by now? Unfortunately only those who've hosted events in the past would really have perspective on this. It's hard to convey this to a player.
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Old July 13th, 2005, 00:36   #162
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I'm relatively new to the airsoft community and don't realy stand on either side of the fence as far as an association is concerened. (depends how extensive the whole thing would be I guess)
As long as it's fairly simplistic about basic membership.
I think an association built to keep the community organised and always keep gaming safely and perpetually going and growing would be great.
I don't however see registering guns and upgrades ect. ect. as being feasable, just because it's taking a basic recreation a little farther than many may be willing to go.

This is of course only an oppinion and may verry well be wrong.

As far as having an organised association to handle games and finding more venues ect. with fees and whatever benefits, I think only time can tell how large it would grow.
I personally wouldn't mind being a part of such a community and a minor membership fee wouldn't bother me seeing as how much I already spend on the sport and any benefits of being a member would be exactly that beneficial to me.
At the same time I think said association would be able to handle attendance issues of any members that are a part of said association.

I think that the biggest problem comes in when ppl start to think about,
"What if I'm not a member of the association?"
"Does this mean I can't go to there games?"
"Does it leave me as some sort of outcast or minority if it grows large enough?"

I just think that for players who might not make it out to many games (whether it be due to location/driving circumstances or the fact that they just feel a couple of games per season is enough for them) these may be some of the concerns.

Kind of like the whole elite among the association situation, but from the aspect of someone who is not a member
"Will association members be the community "elite" leaving me a lowly dog of a non member airsofter?" lol

These are just some questions that came to mind, ofcourse there may be more that others can think of that haven't come to me,and I think they should be braught up to help advance this specific discussion.

I am only trying to bring up ideas that have come to mind, and in no way am trying to belittle anyones views or oppinions on either side of the discussion.
I'm just trying to move it foreward a little.
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Old July 13th, 2005, 01:10   #163
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Has anyone ever been made to feel like a dog at a game thus far? Same people would be managing the games/fields no doubt, but in a much more organized fashion... so by proxy nothing would change in terms of people being made to feel like dogs. I'm sure membership would have its privelages by default (slightly cheaper fees for members at large games?), but that doesn't mean non-members are treated unfairly or ignored or singled out or any other type of social castration you can think of.

If independent players feel "overshadowed" by the bigger teams, it's simply a by-product of a group of individuals who play, train and socialize with one another. I've never been to a game where you can't walk up to a group players on the same team, sit down and shoot the proverbial shit. It just doesn't happen in the field... only online!

Come on folks, this is a no-brainer.
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Old July 13th, 2005, 01:33   #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lt_poncho
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shugart
To sorta bounce off of Agit, I think a lot of us "independant players" feel we will be overshadowed by the big teams.

Yes we may have one of two indpendandt members in the association, but they may not truly represent all of us.
But we all go the same games. The same FR games, the same Wasaga games - there's a different perspective from the players, independant or otherwise - and those who actually host those games and events.

All that's really being said is that if you like those sorts of games above, and like to enjoy those same sort of standards at future games on potential fields, an elected association will ensure that these baseline requirements are met everytime - so you don't have to worry about wondering WTF and just enjoy the day.

Leverage your resources. We've been doing this sport in the GTA since 97' - shouldn't it be a little easier by now? Unfortunately only those who've hosted events in the past would really have perspective on this. It's hard to convey this to a player.
And just to sort of add to Poncho's comments, when you're playing at a game hosted by another player - aren't you conforming to play under that host's rule anyway? When you sign up for a game, you're not only signing up to play - but you're also signing up because you agreed to that host's set of rules for the game. Mainly, these rules are in place for safety reasons - that to me, is the most important aspect.
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Old July 13th, 2005, 02:14   #165
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We've gotten way off topic on attendance here.

I'm not sure the most effective way to do the attenance thing, I suppose some one could create an online database that you enter everyone that didn't show into the database and the game they didn't show for. to prevent abuse hosts would have to log in and register their game ahead of time.

as for the association... what I would like to see is the association basicly set guidelines (not rules) for games, secure locations to play on and possibly be a repository for props.

I'm sure OASA could do this with an elected board and we basicly already have game guidelines already, almost the exact same rules are posted on every game thread with minor variations to fps and goggles depending on location and training.

I am not interested in the association contacting the gvt, mind you the snowmobilers did get more rights when they banded together, but one step at a time.
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