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Event Attendance: No Shows and Bails, discussion.

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Old July 4th, 2005, 22:43   #1
MacDonald
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Event Attendance: No Shows and Bails, discussion.

Too many people think that by signing up for a game and participating in the pre-game build up and excitement makes them a part of the community. Then come up with an excuse at the last second to drop out. It IS noticed. People who do it are for the most part the same people over and over. MilSim airsoft seems to be the sport of a "few", whilst others go for the paintball/star wars/speedball style of play that seems to be the prominent game style these days. The same people who actually dis paintball and then play the same way with an airsoft gun.....go figger?!?!?!?!

Freedom Fighter Wrote:
Well sometimes work, kids, and injuries happen. Part of life.

While airsoft is meant to look more realistic than paintball, what it still boils down to is that it is a game that is meant to be fun, period. Some people like longer drawn out strategy based games while some like the more fast paced run and guns. What difference does it make? None?

I've never been so involved in a sport where people make such an tireless effort to NOT get along with each other.


Duckman Wrote::
but wasnt hte whole point of this discussion about showing up when you say you are?

if you rsvp to a wedding and the night before decide that you dont feel like it, you're wasting someones resources.
in this case it's the hosts planning since it was set up for a larger attendance. should you treat a hosts efforts any less important than a wedding? smaller scale sure but effort none the less.


Koopa Wrote:
Its been resolved. He cancelled many weeks before.

I love milsim the most but many enjoy other forms of airsoft play (ie. my team). In the end, its just a plastic toygun game thats played mostly by 14-18 year olds in their backyards in the US (and other foreign countries).


Slick Wrote:
Honestly I have yet to play a military simulation game yet. Even the so called milsim games still boil down to the same shit, same objectives. I think the closest thing to milsim will be OP KS2.

As far as people bailing out of games all the time I think that needs to be addressed. Maybe starting a new discussion thread about the problem. Maybe starting a thread with user names of people that habitually bail from games. But maybe thats going to far. But something should be done. It really sucks when you spend hours and hours of your time planing a game. Then have it rain or whatever and half the people dont show with no word to let the host know.

And in Memels defense he did ask to be taken off the list. It ended up in the trash with the other posts that got trashed.


Scarecrow Wrote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freedom Fighter
Well sometimes work, kids, and injuries happen. Part of life.
20 People? And many ended up at other games some in some outside this province. No, in this case, no, I don't buy it. And lets not even begin to defend the chronic no-shows. Perhaps some have that reason, but sorry, I've got a 7 year old, a 5 year old and a 5 month old and I run my own business. It doesn't wash. If you're too busy, find a less demanding past time. Self-serve checkers is great, you don't need to sign up for anything and if you don't show, nobody is the wiser.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freedom Fighter
While airsoft is meant to look more realistic than paintball, what it still boils down to is that it is a game that is meant to be fun, period. Some people like longer drawn out strategy based games while some like the more fast paced run and guns. What difference does it make? None?
I think its been proven more often than not that milsim can be just as fun if the game is designed right. Also any game can be a failure regardless of its pedigree. I know where MacDonald is going with this and I too got out of tourney paintball for much the same reasons as I observed here. I don't begrudge anyone to play the game any way they want, its just a case of been there, seen it, don't want to go there...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freedom Fighter
I've never been so involved in a sport where people make such an tireless effort to NOT get along with each other.
Thats an online d-board phenomena. I haven't quite figured out the entire dynamics of it, but, its hard to have any kind of critical discussion without disenfranchising someone and stepping on someones toes and getting an instant reaction that flames up. I've stopped worrying about it. What you see me posting here is nothing more than what I have said to people in person. I get along quite fine with *almost* everyone and for those that I don't I maintain an civil live and let live policy. But I could NOT ignore what happened this weekend and to ignore it and not say anything would be to consent to it, and to invite it again.

Let me make myself clear, I can accept when people have things that come up or (particular to this demographic) when people's rides fall through. But to bail and not post anything and then not even make a public apology to those you bailed on as if its business as usual is simply not right. I'm not going to characterize anyone because I don't want to get into flamage and I can honestly say I don't dislike or hate anyone here, but I did dislike the actions of my friends this weekend who did not show and made the commitment to do so and further to that I should not have to apologize for taking that position when I (we) were the ones at the short end of the stick as a result. It really is nothing more than that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Koopa
Its been resolved. He cancelled many weeks before.
His post was misinterpreted. The way it was worded lead us to read it as him wanting to go to the other team. Thats all. But he's one of 20 people or so.

Duckman Wrote:
forgive the wording. my earlier post wasnt directed at any one person. it was more a generic thing stating that it's blatantly inconsiderate to rsvp and not show thus wasting someone's efforts when it's on this scale effecting the overall game on the fly.

regardless of the numbers i still had a blast.


ATREYU Wrote:
Guys, I'm quite happy to see that people are keeping this mature and civil!


Scarecrow Wrote:
I really hate the fact that this thread is in the trash because I think the discussion is worthwhile (HINT). Slick has suggested that would should talk about attendance issues in another thread and I agree, its a topic that is long overdue for an honest discussion.

What I want people to understand is that they are welcome at the Plantation. Its a place to play and its a new and interesting venue. Perhaps in the excitement of being able to play at a new field and be part of a new venture, some people get caught up in it and make a commitment to show for a game that they could not make in the first place. Also, there are those (and we KNOW there are) who made a conscious decision to ditch this game for another - I am not going after anyone here, I am describing a behaviour that I am asking the community to cease engaging in - thats all. If I wanted to flame or go after people I would simply publish the list - but that would generate a lot of friction that would not solve the problem... the post is having the desired effect and people are contacting Atreyu privately, which is the decent thing to do - thats all I wanted to see. Thank you.

I also appreciate the supportive PMs people have been sending my way and those who have been staunch supporters of the new field - your support IS appreciated. Everytime you play a game half your game fee goes to developing the field further. We've been able to pay for a number of important things related to keeping the field open (tent repairs due to storm damage for instance, field OC vests, tools, etc) and have money in the kitty to go the next step (YES STRUCTURES). Also at the last game a number of people stepped forward with new resources and a willingness to share them and thats wonderful and the field will be a better place for it - so folks, its not all negative, its far more positive than this thread would suggest. This thread addresses ONE game and ONE situation. Don't blow this out of proportion or overgeneralize it.

I knew addressing this would be a risk, but I could not let an attendence failure like this go undiscussed.

Scarecrow OUT.
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Old July 4th, 2005, 23:05   #2
Freedom Fighter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacDonald
Too many people think that by signing up for a game and participating in the pre-game build up and excitement makes them a part of the community. Then come up with an excuse at the last second to drop out. It IS noticed.
Well sometimes work, kids, and injuries happen. Part of life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacDonald
MilSim airsoft seems to be the sport of a "few", whilst others go for the paintball/star wars/speedball style of play that seems to be the prominent game style these days. The same people who actually dis paintball and then play the same way with an airsoft gun.....go figger?!?!?!?!
While airsoft is meant to look more realistic than paintball, what it still boils down to is that it is a game that is meant to be fun, period. Some people like longer drawn out strategy based games while some like the more fast paced run and guns. What difference does it make? None?

I've never been so involved in a sport where people make such an tireless effort to NOT get along with each other.
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Old July 4th, 2005, 23:27   #3
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but wasnt hte whole point of this discussion about showing up when you say you are?

if you rsvp to a wedding and the night before decide that you dont feel like it, you're wasting someones resources.
in this case it's the hosts planning since it was set up for a larger attendance. should you treat a hosts efforts any less important than a wedding? smaller scale sure but effort none the less.
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Old July 4th, 2005, 23:32   #4
Koopa
 
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Quote:
I've resolved my issues with Memel privately and am satisfied with the exchange. I'll leave it at that for now.
Its been resolved. He cancelled many weeks before.

Quote:
...star wars/speedball style of play that seems to be the prominent game style these days. The same people who actually dis paintball and then play the same way with an airsoft gun.....go figger?!?!?!?!
I love milsim the most but many enjoy other forms of airsoft play (ie. my team). In the end, its just a plastic toygun game thats played mostly by 14-18 year olds in their backyards in the US (and other foreign countries).
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Old July 4th, 2005, 23:36   #5
Slick
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacDonald
Too many people think that by signing up for a game and participating in the pre-game build up and excitement makes them a part of the community. Then come up with an excuse at the last second to drop out. It IS noticed. People who do it are for the most part the same people over and over. MilSim airsoft seems to be the sport of a "few", whilst others go for the paintball/star wars/speedball style of play that seems to be the prominent game style these days. The same people who actually dis paintball and then play the same way with an airsoft gun.....go figger?!?!?!?!
Honestly I have yet to play a military simulation game yet. Even the so called milsim games still boil down to the same shit, same objectives. I think the closest thing to milsim will be OP KS2.

As far as people bailing out of games all the time I think that needs to be addressed. Maybe starting a new discussion thread about the problem. Maybe starting a thread with user names of people that habitually bail from games. But maybe thats going to far. But something should be done. It really sucks when you spend hours and hours of your time planing a game. Then have it rain or whatever and half the people dont show with no word to let the host know.

And in Memels defense he did ask to be taken off the list. It ended up in the trash with the other posts that got trashed.
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Old July 4th, 2005, 23:39   #6
Scarecrow
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freedom Fighter
Well sometimes work, kids, and injuries happen. Part of life.
20 People? And many ended up at other games some in some outside this province. No, in this case, no, I don't buy it. And lets not even begin to defend the chronic no-shows. Perhaps some have that reason, but sorry, I've got a 7 year old, a 5 year old and a 5 month old and I run my own business. It doesn't wash. If you're too busy, find a less demanding past time. Self-serve checkers is great, you don't need to sign up for anything and if you don't show, nobody is the wiser.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freedom Fighter
While airsoft is meant to look more realistic than paintball, what it still boils down to is that it is a game that is meant to be fun, period. Some people like longer drawn out strategy based games while some like the more fast paced run and guns. What difference does it make? None?
I think its been proven more often than not that milsim can be just as fun if the game is designed right. Also any game can be a failure regardless of its pedigree. I know where MacDonald is going with this and I too got out of tourney paintball for much the same reasons as I observed here. I don't begrudge anyone to play the game any way they want, its just a case of been there, seen it, don't want to go there...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freedom Fighter
I've never been so involved in a sport where people make such an tireless effort to NOT get along with each other.
Thats an online d-board phenomena. I haven't quite figured out the entire dynamics of it, but, its hard to have any kind of critical discussion without disenfranchising someone and stepping on someones toes and getting an instant reaction that flames up. I've stopped worrying about it. What you see me posting here is nothing more than what I have said to people in person. I get along quite fine with *almost* everyone and for those that I don't I maintain an civil live and let live policy. But I could NOT ignore what happened this weekend and to ignore it and not say anything would be to consent to it, and to invite it again.

Let me make myself clear, I can accept when people have things that come up or (particular to this demographic) when people's rides fall through. But to bail and not post anything and then not even make a public apology to those you bailed on as if its business as usual is simply not right. I'm not going to characterize anyone because I don't want to get into flamage and I can honestly say I don't dislike or hate anyone here, but I did dislike the actions of my friends this weekend who did not show and made the commitment to do so and further to that I should not have to apologize for taking that position when I (we) were the ones at the short end of the stick as a result. It really is nothing more than that.
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Old July 4th, 2005, 23:49   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Koopa
Its been resolved. He cancelled many weeks before.
His post was misinterpreted. The way it was worded lead us to read it as him wanting to go to the other team. Thats all. But he's one of 20 people or so.
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Old July 4th, 2005, 23:55   #8
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Quote:
Koopa wrote:
Its been resolved. He cancelled many weeks before.


His post was misinterpreted. The way it was worded lead us to read it as him wanting to go to the other team. Thats all. But he's one of 20 people or so.
I was just lettin the guy who posted above me know.
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Old July 5th, 2005, 00:00   #9
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forgive the wording. my earlier post wasnt directed at any one person. it was more a generic thing stating that it's blatantly inconsiderate to rsvp and not show thus wasting someone's efforts when it's on this scale effecting the overall game on the fly.

regardless of the numbers i still had a blast.
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Old July 5th, 2005, 00:08   #10
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Guys, I'm quite happy to see that people are keeping this mature and civil!
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Old July 5th, 2005, 00:15   #11
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I really hate the fact that this thread is in the trash because I think the discussion is worthwhile (HINT). Slick has suggested that would should talk about attendance issues in another thread and I agree, its a topic that is long overdue for an honest discussion.

What I want people to understand is that they are welcome at the Plantation. Its a place to play and its a new and interesting venue. Perhaps in the excitement of being able to play at a new field and be part of a new venture, some people get caught up in it and make a commitment to show for a game that they could not make in the first place. Also, there are those (and we KNOW there are) who made a conscious decision to ditch this game for another - I am not going after anyone here, I am describing a behaviour that I am asking the community to cease engaging in - thats all. If I wanted to flame or go after people I would simply publish the list - but that would generate a lot of friction that would not solve the problem... the post is having the desired effect and people are contacting Atreyu privately, which is the decent thing to do - thats all I wanted to see. Thank you.

I also appreciate the supportive PMs people have been sending my way and those who have been staunch supporters of the new field - your support IS appreciated. Everytime you play a game half your game fee goes to developing the field further. We've been able to pay for a number of important things related to keeping the field open (tent repairs due to storm damage for instance, field OC vests, tools, etc) and have money in the kitty to go the next step (YES STRUCTURES). Also at the last game a number of people stepped forward with new resources and a willingness to share them and thats wonderful and the field will be a better place for it - so folks, its not all negative, its far more positive than this thread would suggest. This thread addresses ONE game and ONE situation. Don't blow this out of proportion or overgeneralize it.

I knew addressing this would be a risk, but I could not let an attendence failure like this go undiscussed.

Scarecrow OUT.
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Old July 5th, 2005, 00:53   #12
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Lightbulb Event Attendance: No Shows and Bails, discussion.

This post comes from a trashed discussion that I think needs to be had, and its about game attendance, specifically those who post for attending a game but don't show, with no explanation, and no post to cancel. Its also about dealing with those who continually post to attend but never actually make it out to an event.

I guess the question is, how do we deal with this, especially with larger games where the hosting staff has to do a lot of planning and resource arrangements to accomodate the game. As a host of three years having done god knows how many games now (I think I am somewhere around 50+ games if you count the Thursday night skirmishes at Deadlands), I've seen a lot and tried a lot of different things. But one thing is almost guaranteed: no shows. Can be as low as one player, but usually in the double digit percentages. I've had games as low as 50% show rate.

Currently in my case with Plantation, the cost is minimized because of the unique arrangements we have with field owner - the risk is only big ops that require planning and materials. But others stick their necks out by prepaying places like FR and Wasaga to secure the venue and simply PRAY enough show up to cover the advance. Others have rented venues and have to meet minimum attendence to recover their costs. People are taking on financial liabilities for the communities' benefit to host.

I guess its also a plea for certain people to take their postings of attendance for a game seriously. But its also a question to the community. What do you want hosts to do? How do you want us to handle this? If we post about it we look like whiners, which is why it doesn't often get addressed. But it is a serious question and a serious problem.

Your feedback is welcome and appreciated. I don't want people to post names of specific people that they think are bailers or chronics - this is NOT the intention of this thread. Lets speak in general terms only.

Ideas Short List:
- Pay deposit upon signup for games requiring advances on bookings
- Prepay Entirely
- Lose deposit or prepay if cancel less that x hours prior to game
- Players to be mindful of consequences to host for no shows
- Annual prepaid fee in the form of a Seasons Pass
- Track and make public a list of chronic Bailers and No Shows
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Old July 5th, 2005, 01:04   #13
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I don't believe it's unreasonable to ask for a deposit to attend games where you have to pay an advance, or where you have a player cap.
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Old July 5th, 2005, 01:10   #14
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i think a prepaid sum would be a good idea...$20 game fee...$10 up front in order to secure youre spot...48 hours notice ahead of time from the game to get a refund if you cant make it
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Old July 5th, 2005, 01:12   #15
Droc
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Warmongers Ottawa had planned to come to the game, and we didnt, nor did we post that we couldnt make it.
Simply put, we lost drivers and stuff came up last minuit. I donno bouth others, but ASC was down Friday night and all of Saturday for me.

Aomw took offence because a few of our guys went to a game Saturday night and into Sunday but wouldnt have been able to do a saturday game anyways.

Our Ottawa team screwed up and left our TO boys and everyone else hanging. We are in the process of arranging a simplified way for our Ottawa team to get down there that wouldnt be affected by loosing a driver.
Though we had planned on comming, we had trnasporatation issues that were last min, and they failed last min. Life issues came into play and airsoft had to take a back-seat.
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