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Echo1 banned from ShotShow

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Old January 23rd, 2012, 16:30   #16
Tex
 
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Originally Posted by Augiedoggy18 View Post
Cybergun never wants to go after anyone
What? that is their whole business model. buy up every license they can then go after everyone from OEM's right down to retailers. They are trademark trolls.

Not saying they don't have the right to do so nor that echo1 or anyone else they have gone after was right but lets be honest about who/what cybergun is.
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Old January 23rd, 2012, 16:41   #17
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What? that is their whole business model. buy up every license they can then go after everyone from OEM's right down to retailers. They are trademark trolls.

Not saying they don't have the right to do so nor that echo1 or anyone else they have gone after was right but lets be honest about who/what cybergun is.
I don't agree with Cybergun's practices by any means. They are indeed trademark trolls. They paid to get the rights to the trades from the manufacturers, and it was done so that their own substandard garbage rebrand products would have trademarks and quality stuff wouldn't. There's no arguing that.

But regardless, in legal terms, they've got the license to exclusively use and manage those trademarks for airsoft guns, and they have the right to legally go after anyone that infringes on their trademarks. If Echo 1 is publicly claiming to have licensed trademarks when they're NOT legally licensed, then they're pulling sneaky, underhanded shit. And Cybergun - regardless how much we may hate them - have the legal right to go after them.
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Old January 23rd, 2012, 17:53   #18
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Originally Posted by Brian McIlmoyle View Post
I'd say that those companies did it to themselves

a company who has spent the money to license trades has every right to protect their property.


good on Cybergun for standing up for their rights over companies that flaunt the law.
In some cases, license agreements REQUIRE licensees to prosecute infringement in the regions where their license is granted.
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Old January 23rd, 2012, 18:05   #19
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Oh that's what happened, Dude's were pulling down the booth and seemed a little un- happy. I guess I was a few minutes behind you Bastards.
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Old January 23rd, 2012, 20:02   #20
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You guys should read the filing, this is definitely not about "illegal trades" in terms of trademarks displayed on the guns, and contains some very interesting tidbits.

Echo1 has been very careful about their product naming and their trades usually say "ECHO1 ASC" etc. There are many videos with Brian Holt on YouTube where you can see him specifically going out of his way either in conversations with other people or in instructional how-to videos to not ever refer to any of their products by anything but the echo1 product name. Even when handling and referring to, for example, G36 magazines which couldn't possibly be referred to by anything else, he's said stuff like "this type of magazine seen here".

This is not a lack of being careful and flaunting illegal trades at Shot Show nearly as much as Cybergun making a case for "design infringement" as it were. Here's the restraining order filing:

Quote:
The Court also finds that Plaintiffs risk serious irreparable harm if Jag is not immediately enjoined from selling and marketing the accused rifles at this year’s SHOT Show and thereafter. Finally, the Court finds that Jag has been given notice of its accused conduct and of Plaintiff’s Motion for Temporary Restraining Order.. The Court has considered the merits of the Motion for Temporary Restraining Order filed by Plaintiffs Cybergun, S.A. (“Cybergun”) and FN Herstal, S.A. (“FNH”)
Funny that it never occurs to FN Herstal that limiting the design and production of replicas of their rifle to a company who doesn't always choose the best manufacturing partner wouldn't also constitute irreparable harm to their brand. Oh well

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and finds that Plaintiffs have demonstrated a reasonable likelihood of success with respect to their claims of trade dress and copyright infringement against Defendant Jag Precision (“Jag”), whose accused airsoft rifles are nearly identical to the proprietary SCAR design owned by Plaintiffs.
Note the emphasis on design and not the marks or naming themselves.

Quote:
Accordingly, the Court hereby GRANTS Plaintiffs’ Motion and enters the following temporary restraining Order against Jag:
Defendant Jag Precision, including all officers, directors, principals, agents, servants, employees, successors and assigns, and all others aiding, abetting, or acting in concert or active participation therewith, are hereby enjoined from making, using, selling, and offering to sell the knockoff products, including the Vega Force MK16 products, the Vega Force MK17 products, the Echo 1 ASC products, and the Echo 1 ASC-H products, or any other product that is the substantial equivalent to the knockoff products in overall design and appearance, regardless of whatever “version” or name Defendants may use to sell such product
The part where it says "overall design and appearance" is where this goes from being about naming and trademarks to a slippery slope to anything that looks "SCAR-ish".
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Old January 23rd, 2012, 20:07   #21
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Old January 23rd, 2012, 20:09   #22
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Echo1 just released their lineup of Fals under the name Enterprise Arms, and had them on display at the show

It can be seen in the following video, even the commentator referred to it as a FN FAL

AATV @ Shot Show 2012: JAG Precision/ECHO-1 - YouTube
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Old January 23rd, 2012, 21:00   #23
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Originally Posted by Najohn View Post
Echo1 just released their lineup of Fals under the name Enterprise Arms, and had them on display at the show

It can be seen in the following video, even the commentator referred to it as a FN FAL

AATV @ Shot Show 2012: JAG Precision/ECHO-1 - YouTube
You have to note that the commentator is from an Austrian airsoft show on YouTube. Neither Brian Holt nor the signs on the booth display (watch it in HD) refer to it as an FN product at any time. The signs on the wall say SOF1, SOF2.
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Old January 24th, 2012, 13:52   #24
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Originally Posted by Tex View Post
What? that is their whole business model. buy up every license they can then go after everyone from OEM's right down to retailers. They are trademark trolls.

Not saying they don't have the right to do so nor that echo1 or anyone else they have gone after was right but lets be honest about who/what cybergun is.
I'm glad that you are an expert on the Cybergun business model. Going after people legally is a drawn-out, messy, and expensive process that everyone seeks to avoid. This is why companies like Cybergun serve Cease and Desist letters to others who produce counterfeit goods. When those companies thumb their noses at these letters, it forces Cybergun's hand. Most of the license agreements that Cybergun has REQUIRE that Cybergun defend trademarks and trade dress. The agreement with FN is no exception.
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Old January 24th, 2012, 14:00   #25
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Originally Posted by Crunchmeister View Post
They paid to get the rights to the trades from the manufacturers, and it was done so that their own substandard garbage rebrand products would have trademarks and quality stuff wouldn't. There's no arguing that.
This is just idiotic. Sure, Cybergun does produce price-point items for Mass Market distribution through Walmart, Canadian Tire, Big 5, Sports Authority, and others. This is necessary because giant companies like these drive volume.

However, Cybergun sources a ton of items through King Arms, G&G, VFC, KJ Works, CYMA, JG, Inokatsu, and even KWA. These items are distributed in Europe by Cybergun and its various branches and in the US by Spartan Imports and Palco Sports. To make a blanket statement saying that all Cybergun items are "substandard garbage" shows a level a ignorance and outright bias.

I own guns from a variety of manufacturers. I don't own anything that could be considered low-end. I encounter gun issues with Cybergun products at a rate that is the same as what I find with other makers/branders because their guns come from many of the same places.
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Old January 24th, 2012, 16:51   #26
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Originally Posted by Augiedoggy18 View Post
I'm glad that you are an expert on the Cybergun business model. Going after people legally is a drawn-out, messy, and expensive process that everyone seeks to avoid. This is why companies like Cybergun serve Cease and Desist letters to others who produce counterfeit goods. When those companies thumb their noses at these letters, it forces Cybergun's hand. Most of the license agreements that Cybergun has REQUIRE that Cybergun defend trademarks and trade dress. The agreement with FN is no exception.
I respectfully think that you need to learn a bit about business models...

I can name a few businesses whose models are similar.

- SCO Group (sued Redhat)
- Righthaven
- Digitude
- Those law companies pretty much setup to extort people into paying excessive amounts of money for "piracy" of music or whatever (arguably piracy is illegal but to go after people (some are old ladies who have never owned a computer in their lives or are already dead) like that with the option of settling for $20K vs a long drawnout lawsuit/court case that will leave them deeper in the hole than if they were to just pay up the extortion money originally).
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Old January 24th, 2012, 17:33   #27
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Originally Posted by L473ncy View Post
I can name a few businesses whose models are similar.

- SCO Group (sued Redhat)
- Righthaven
- Digitude
- Those law companies pretty much setup to extort people into paying excessive amounts of money for "piracy" of music or whatever (arguably piracy is illegal but to go after people (some are old ladies who have never owned a computer in their lives or are already dead) like that with the option of settling for $20K vs a long drawnout lawsuit/court case that will leave them deeper in the hole than if they were to just pay up the extortion money originally).
Can't forget about Apple, who has a patent on a rectangular shape with rounded corners.

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Old January 24th, 2012, 18:48   #28
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Can't forget about Apple, who has a trademark on a rectangular shape with rounded corners.

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Old January 24th, 2012, 18:55   #29
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No, Apple has what is called a "design patent" on a rectangular device with rounded corners. Specifically using their design patent D504,889 in their legal battles against Samsung's Galaxy Tablet.

Trademarks are different.

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Old January 24th, 2012, 19:05   #30
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You know what else is a rectangular device with rounded edges made using glass with a bezel?

A lot of coffee tables. Maybe apple should start suing furniture makers.

Although IRT to Apple, it could be said their main is their technology but the litigation is a sidebusiness for them. Which is why they pretty much propped up
Digitude as well so their name wouldn't be "sullied" even though it's blatently a proxy company setup for trademark/patent litigation.

PS: If I had the money I would love to have a MacPro workstation but even then hackintosh rigs with better specs for a cheaper price are probably where it's at.
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