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Old January 3rd, 2012, 20:46   #1
tac57
 
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Itar 101???

DISCLAIMER: I am asking this just out of curiosity. I DON'T want to start a flame war or anything, so please just answer the question or don't say anything. Mods: if this is in the wrong section, then feel free to move it.

What I want to know is ITAR, why does it exist, and how can one country dictate what every other country does with hardware from the us?
What i mean is, lets say that country X buys a ITAR controlled aircraft (for example) from a us company. I know the us company has to get export authorization, but once country X has the plane, why do they have to get export authorization if THEY want to transfer it? How is it the US's business once it is out of the country?

Moreover, why do countries go along with ITAR if it's such a pain in the a** for them? US companies have to by law, but after that, why do states still follow the ITAR regulations?

It's bad when you go on ebay and can't buy a FLASHLIGHT because of "export regulations"

Just wondering

Please don't flame, just help me out
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Old January 3rd, 2012, 20:57   #2
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The big reason to follow ITAR is if you don't they wont deal with you anymore and a lot of things that are manufactured state side will no longer be available to military and law enforcement.
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Old January 3rd, 2012, 21:00   #3
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I would love to see this flashlight!

OK simplification time.

So some folks in the USA won't export anything even if it's uncontrolled if they have items in their supply chain that are. Let's take Optics Planet for example. Prying anything out of their hands is an epic task.

They have so much controlled goods that if the human element (guy at the shipping desk) slaps a ship to Canada label on a box with an optic instead of the flashlight you ordered and the Commerce dept. gets wind of it they get it in the ass.

Now you can argue that they're loosing customers this way and they may be but they also have the worlds larges captive audience for the stuff they sell so they don't really care.

The post script to this is that just about anything you want is going to turn up in the classifieds section here.
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Old January 3rd, 2012, 22:34   #4
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what is the actual point of ITAR? Why would the US lock down sales of milspec hardware to allied countries?
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Old January 3rd, 2012, 22:38   #5
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To control the flow of items they dont want getting in the hands of the enemy.
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Old January 3rd, 2012, 22:53   #6
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I find ITAR has to do much more in reality with protecting US manufacturers rather than restricting potentially dangerous, items, etc.

I think personally, it revolves around business and Capitalism more than safety - but I sure do not want a lot of ITAR items falling in the wrong hands, so I can't complain...
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Old January 3rd, 2012, 22:55   #7
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Oh I know what its purposes and such are. That's just the textbook answer on what its all about. There are perks apparently to submitting yourself for ITAR.
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Old January 4th, 2012, 00:04   #8
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There are perks apparently to submitting yourself for ITAR.
AND...major drawbacks as well. One of our equipment suppliers just had one of their products suddenly reclassified as ITAR-controlled more than a year after it had been put onto the domestic and export market. Good luck getting all of those already exported boxes back onto US soil!!

On the say-so of some US gov't bureaucrat invoking the almighty "ITAR", overnight our ability to get warranty service went out the door and the AE (appl. engineer) was completely gagged and unable to even discuss with me products we had already purchased, and this is for the Can. Gov't no less by the way! The ONLY way out for this company to deal with the Canadian Gov't was to go through the massive paperwork/fee exercise of obtaining the export approval from the US Gov't. It doesn't end there either. Their entire production facility for this particular product right down to every person working there and every part that goes into making the item must also be ITAR controlled because the end-product is. It's kind of like the aircraft industry where every single nut and bolt has an associated paper trail which follows it through its entire life cycle. It's no small wonder then that you end up with a regular hammer costing $15.00 at the local hardware store while the exact same hammer manufactured under ITAR rules costs $150.00 by the time you get it. Oh, and the only ones who can obtain said hammer are inside the USA as it's overly burdensome to sell what really is a $15.00 hammer outside the country, especially when the prospective client country has figured out how to build their own for even less. That or they import it from China...

ITAR is an economic, protectionist policy thinly masquerading as an arms control one. Most USA-based manufacturers would tell you straight-up that it really doesn't help them other than granting access to US DOD contracts for the few companies lucky enough to obtain them. ITAR closes the market rather than opening it up and does a complete end-run around NAFTA. Luckily however, there are (convoluted and annoying) procedures for "friendly" nations to obtain ITAR-restricted items but the paperwork headache is not fun and the burden on manufacturers isn't either.

/end rant

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Last edited by FlyGuy; January 4th, 2012 at 18:09.. Reason: sp. mistake...derp!
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Old January 4th, 2012, 00:33   #9
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Well said Fly.

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ITAR is an economic, protectionist policy thinly masquerading as an arms control one.
Totally agree.
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Old January 4th, 2012, 02:03   #10
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Originally Posted by tac57 View Post
what is the actual point of ITAR? Why would the US lock down sales of milspec hardware to allied countries?
There is absolutely no blocks of any NATO participant from transacting with other member states to my knowledge.

ITAR restricted states:
  • Afghanistan
  • Belarus
  • Cuba
  • Cyprus
  • Eritrea
  • Iran
  • Iraq
  • Ivory Coast
  • Lebanon
  • Sierra Leone
  • Libya
  • Norko
  • Syria
  • Vietnam
  • Myanmar
  • China
  • Haiti
  • Liberia
  • Rwanda
  • Somalia
  • Sri Lanka
  • Sudan
  • Yemen
  • Zimbabwe
  • Venezuela
  • Democratic Republic of the Congo

Canada isn't on that list.

However, as a random person, you have no member rights in NATO.

The restrictions on citizens is in pursuance of various internationally sanctioned motions. Apart from certain places and contexts in the US, not a lot of people abroad have access to the latest military tech outside of military or related entities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interna...ms_Regulations


http://www.pmddtc.state.gov/embargoe...ies/index.html
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Old January 4th, 2012, 03:00   #11
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ITAR applies to all nations who want to buy American made items that happen to make "the list". Some states are prohibited, but all restricted in the sense that you need to get DoS approval in the form of export permits.

ITAR has really only been an issue since American troops have been in a combat situation, and it will persist for years to come. They have the technological and innovation edge, and don't want to lose it. However, there is nothing they have that isn't already out there, if you have the money, connections and knowledge of where to find it.
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Old February 28th, 2013, 17:27   #12
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Bringing back this thread to not pollute thr forum.

I'm not quite sure to understand, Does ITAR means we can't buy any item with this law?

I was checking this Magpul stock and it's written ITAR on the page:

http://store.magpul.com/product/MAG404/181

So can I buy this or no? thanks for the answer.
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Old February 28th, 2013, 17:36   #13
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The original idea was to keep current, military use, American made tech out of the hands of the "non American forces". Now it's more of an international "do what we say/make money program".

There are companies in Canada that stock, sell, and bring in Magpul.
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Old February 28th, 2013, 17:38   #14
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I found some place well they sell them in canada, but some put their price very high. so I was wondering if we can buy directly from the U.S., but i got my answer. Gonna wait to be AV and check if there's someone you sell an old stock that I can buy for my future RA HK416
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Old February 28th, 2013, 17:43   #15
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just find a canadian retailer that has it.
http://ctcsupplies.ca/collections/stocks
these guys have their other stocks they can prolly get you the rifle stock version
its just likely not as popular so they dont stock it
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