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Old January 2nd, 2012, 13:31   #1
Heerven
 
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New BB design: is it possible?

Hi
Since I started to get more into milsim with my KJW GBBR I was wondering if there is a possibility with real cap mag, to have a new design for BBs and get rid of the hop up.
The idea is simple:
Use a conical (6mm) bullet to have more aerodynamic potential.
I m not a specialist of guns or aerodynamic system that’s why I want your opinion
Correct me if I ‘m wrong, but could a conical bulllet keep her speed much longer and by consequence go further?
Does the gain in drag effect will compensate the hop up effect? That also mean the BB will hit his target faster at 100 feet for exemple instead of having this current situation of people avoiding slow BB because of the hop up, just doing one step aside.
With still the round tip of the bullet (more like the real 9 mm) I guess we still keeping a low penetration effect (trough skin) and stay safe.
You add the twisted barrel like the real one can also improve the aerodynamic, if I’m right.

What do you think ? Could it be the next generation of BB for real cap?
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Old January 2nd, 2012, 13:34   #2
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Why not just use real bullets...
Or rather, make then out of plastic and play real guns instead of airsoft? lol
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Old January 2nd, 2012, 13:40   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heerven View Post
Hi
Since I started to get more into milsim with my KJW GBBR I was wondering if there is a possibility with real cap mag, to have a new design for BBs and get rid of the hop up.
The idea is simple:
Use a conical (6mm) bullet to have more aerodynamic potential.
I m not a specialist of guns or aerodynamic system that’s why I want your opinion
Correct me if I ‘m wrong, but could a conical bulllet keep her speed much longer and by consequence go further?
Does the gain in drag effect will compensate the hop up effect? That also mean the BB will hit his target faster at 100 feet for exemple instead of having this current situation of people avoiding slow BB because of the hop up, just doing one step aside.
With still the round tip of the bullet (more like the real 9 mm) I guess we still keeping a low penetration effect (trough skin) and stay safe.
You add the twisted barrel like the real one can also improve the aerodynamic, if I’m right.

What do you think ? Could it be the next generation of BB for real cap?

You're wrong.. the issue is the weight of the projectile .. and the safe velocity limitation for shooting people.

The only way to solve these problems is a spherical projectile and backspin.

If you Don't want people sidestepping.. wait till you are closer to shoot them..

I have not seen someone sidestep a bb shot within 10 feet.
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Old January 2nd, 2012, 13:45   #4
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There was another member here who made a thread about how he was designing an airsoft sniper bullet like this, but in short it never materialized. I like your idea and I doubt many airsofters haven't gave it a thought, but I could foresee some legal and physics problems introduced. Any projectile with a length greater than it's diameter will tumble and change trajectory as it decelerates unless its axially spinning at a velocity proportionate for its mass to generate enough gyroscopic inertia to hold its path. Plastic is very light, respectively, and to get it to spin fast enough the barrel must be coarsely rifled and this creates great drag, which could be overcome with more pressure and airflow but this brings about some new problems. It would almost be easier to set it into spinning by using a high speed motorized wheel in the chamber and then fire it down a smooth bore barrel.

Last edited by arcanuck; January 2nd, 2012 at 13:59..
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Old January 2nd, 2012, 13:47   #5
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If it worked and it was marketable in the current airsoft Market Bastard would offer it and China would clone it. Plus these weird shaped 'bbs'' would render current mags obsolete.
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Old January 2nd, 2012, 13:51   #6
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the safe velocity limitation for shooting people.
You don't understand. I don't want to increase the velocity but keep it for longer

If you Don't want people sidestepping.. wait till you are closer to shoot them..
Really?
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Old January 2nd, 2012, 13:53   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heerven View Post
Hi
Since I started to get more into milsim with my KJW GBBR I was wondering if there is a possibility with real cap mag, to have a new design for BBs and get rid of the hop up.
The idea is simple:
Use a conical (6mm) bullet to have more aerodynamic potential.
I m not a specialist of guns or aerodynamic system that’s why I want your opinion
Correct me if I ‘m wrong, but could a conical bulllet keep her speed much longer and by consequence go further?
Does the gain in drag effect will compensate the hop up effect? That also mean the BB will hit his target faster at 100 feet for exemple instead of having this current situation of people avoiding slow BB because of the hop up, just doing one step aside.
With still the round tip of the bullet (more like the real 9 mm) I guess we still keeping a low penetration effect (trough skin) and stay safe.
You add the twisted barrel like the real one can also improve the aerodynamic, if I’m right.

What do you think ? Could it be the next generation of BB for real cap?
I've seen other ideas like this before and answer simply put is yes somebody already has done what ur suggesting (kind of...) and no there are no real cap mags that can utillise them as yet for m4 based airsoft guns... at least that i know of and what i don't know could fill a barn or 2 so pplease feel free to correct me if i' wrong there.

if u look a4ound enough u'll eventually find info on here somewhere about bb's that were oval cross-section with a little tail designed for use in breach loading sniper rifles
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Old January 2nd, 2012, 14:10   #8
Brian McIlmoyle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heerven View Post
the safe velocity limitation for shooting people.
You don't understand. I don't want to increase the velocity but keep it for longer

If you Don't want people sidestepping.. wait till you are closer to shoot them..
Really?
Really... most people at outdoor airsoft games close to the maximum effective range of their guns.. and then plink at each other...

With effective fire and movement and proper use of suppressing fire. you can close to close range and be certain of your shots.

But this requires co-ordination and acceptance of command.

Airsoft guns are poor tools to simulate engagements in a field setting.. even if you doubled the range of all guns all you do is push the same problem downrange by another 100 feet. so instead of people sidestepping your shoots at 100 feet they would do it at 200 feet.. what did you achieve?
nothing useful.

The guns present certain limitations.. these limitations can be overcome by skill. If you choose to take the time to develop it.
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Old January 2nd, 2012, 14:13   #9
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It's called a pellet gun. Go have fun with some wadcutters.
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Old January 2nd, 2012, 14:14   #10
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If it worked and it was marketable in the current airsoft Market Bastard would offer it and China would clone it. Plus these weird shaped 'bbs'' would render current mags obsolete.
Not necesserely because, the modification to do to fit mag, the real cap aspect (you couldn't switch to low cap or hi cap) that mean it could be the result of a new category of specialized (milsim) airsoft

if u look a4ound enough u'll eventually find info on here somewhere about bb's that were oval cross-section with a little tail designed for use in breach loading sniper rifles
I saw those wings bullets and happy some to see people some people try to innovate systems...Even if it's not working all the time
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Old January 2nd, 2012, 14:18   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arcanuck View Post
Plastic is very light, respectively, and to get it to spin fast enough the barrel must be coarsely rifled and this creates great drag, which could be overcome with more pressure and airflow but this brings about some new problems.
Is it not the opposite? Lighter mean less energy needed to spin the BB, no?
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Old January 2nd, 2012, 14:18   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heerven View Post
Hi
Since I started to get more into milsim with my KJW GBBR I was wondering if there is a possibility with real cap mag, to have a new design for BBs and get rid of the hop up.
The idea is simple:
Use a conical (6mm) bullet to have more aerodynamic potential.
I m not a specialist of guns or aerodynamic system that’s why I want your opinion
Correct me if I ‘m wrong, but could a conical bulllet keep her speed much longer and by consequence go further?
Does the gain in drag effect will compensate the hop up effect? That also mean the BB will hit his target faster at 100 feet for exemple instead of having this current situation of people avoiding slow BB because of the hop up, just doing one step aside.
With still the round tip of the bullet (more like the real 9 mm) I guess we still keeping a low penetration effect (trough skin) and stay safe.
You add the twisted barrel like the real one can also improve the aerodynamic, if I’m right.

What do you think ? Could it be the next generation of BB for real cap?
they used to make airsoft ammo in a shape of a bullet shape pellets made ut of soft plastic but that was way back in the 70's and 80's and it was ammo for springer guns, eventhough it was low powered springer, as I remember it hurts like a bitch and I actually bleed when shot by my cousin. Now bring this forward to present time with the more powerfull AEG/GBBR it think the potential for injuries can drastically increase.
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Old January 2nd, 2012, 14:29   #13
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Originally Posted by Heerven View Post
Is it not the opposite? Lighter mean less energy needed to spin the BB, no?
Yes but because its so light it has to spin at a remarkable speed to generate enough gyroscopic force and thus the barrel has to be coarsely rifled. Given the weights of about 0.2-0.4g and low apparent muzzel velocities, it would have to be rifled so coarse it would score the surface of the bb and likely sheer the grooves off it.
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Old January 2nd, 2012, 14:31   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildcard View Post
they used to make airsoft ammo in a shape of a bullet shape pellets made ut of soft plastic but that was way back in the 70's and 80's and it was ammo for springer guns, eventhough it was low powered springer, as I remember it hurts like a bitch and I actually bleed when shot by my cousin. Now bring this forward to present time with the more powerfull AEG/GBBR it think the potential for injuries can drastically increase.
I remember that. I had a cap gun that shot that ammunition. The cap could put those through paper at 15ft.

@ OP, the idea of making a more aerodynamic "bb" has been around for a long time. Tiberius tried to do it with their paintball markers and created the First Strike round that was extremely expensive, marginally effective and was almost uniformly banned from all field as it posed a safety risk.

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Old January 2nd, 2012, 14:33   #15
Heerven
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian McIlmoyle View Post
Really... most people at outdoor airsoft games close to the maximum effective range of their guns.. and then plink at each other...

With effective fire and movement and proper use of suppressing fire. you can close to close range and be certain of your shots.

But this requires co-ordination and acceptance of command.

Airsoft guns are poor tools to simulate engagements in a field setting.. even if you doubled the range of all guns all you do is push the same problem downrange by another 100 feet. so instead of people sidestepping your shoots at 100 feet they would do it at 200 feet.. what did you achieve?
nothing useful.

The guns present certain limitations.. these limitations can be overcome by skill. If you choose to take the time to develop it.
Now I see your point and I almost totaly agree with everything. Actually this is what I practice with my team. but at some point it could be more interesting (tactically) for game to have a better range and a better speed BB (shooting people running).
Also the very close range we use in games change some aspect to tactic accordingly to reality. Sound are easy to spot, and visual contact are easier to make instead of the range they use in reality.
In my idea first, I just want to remove the hop up and compensate by another system more simple and more realistic. if we can gain other performance without increase the velocity... why not.
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