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What Do I Need To Start A Field??

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Old June 9th, 2005, 14:55   #31
Scarecrow
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NewBie
contact Scarecrow. He he's the one with experience in Ontario starting fields.
I'll just throw in what I know from experience.

GCL - General Commercial Liability - only works if you have a commercial entity that has posession (lease or own) of the property. Second, it will only cover things like if someone slips on banana peel on the way in and hurt themselves. GCL will NOT cover on-field game injuries. There is also no way to get airsoft classified so that it can be insured. This dogged paintball for years until enough fields got together and went to the trouble of engaging an insurance firm to undertake a actuarial analysis of paintball and give them a special package - to my understanding, it still is insurance available only through an association that represents paintball. When I called them to see if they'd insure airsoft, they already knew what airsoft was and told me I'd need to do what the paintball fields did years ago. I am doing some of that now with the OASA. It has to start there because trying to insure just ONE field would be prohibitively expensive and ultimately the clauses and riders would make the insurance useless. And from my uinderstanding, paintball fields that are hosting airsoft are taking on a risk that their insurance would not cover airsofters should something go wrong, given that we are playing airsoft and not paintball on that field (paintball field owners, please jump in if your experience is different from what I've just said).

WAIVERS - What has been said is partly right. You cannot waive your right to sue in Canada or waive your right to seek redress. That being said, waivers are useful in a court WHEN you are being sued to prove to the court that the individual engaged in the sport and event knowing full well the risks and chose to accept those risks knowingly, and that they are of age and sound mind to do so and that you did not misrepresent the risks. In most cases if the waiver is set up properly, the case will be thrown out - but not until you've spent a ton of money on lawyers to go prove that fact. Which is why the only one who wins lawsuits like those, are lawyers.

In the latest effort I've engaged in in Bowmanville (Newcastle actually), the contract I signed with the field owner for use of the private property puts the supervisor (not the host) as the sole responsible individual for what happens at the field. So, if something goes wrong, I get sued, or rather, I am obligated to defend myself and the owner at my own expense. Hence my somewhat anal-retentive speech at the first game and my lack of patience with problematic players - I cannot afford to tolerate stupidity, its as simple as that.

"How do you start a field?" Don't ask that question until you've answered the first question, which is "I am willing to take on the responsibility and liability of running a field and all it entails?" If you answer NO to that question, don't even consider trying to start a field. As to why I decided to that, I should probably seek a medical opinion on my sanity. I just love the sport and I enjoy hosting and for the most part I get satisfaction out of watching my friends have fun playing.
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Old June 9th, 2005, 15:01   #32
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Originally Posted by Adreniline Junky
just make up some waviers for people to sign before they play so they can't sue you if they get hurt.
I help operate a paintball field and our lawyer stated the same, any real lawyer coudl burn that waiver in court. the only good it does is (for the less educated people who dont know this), deteres them from starting anything legal against you.

but ya its the same insurance as for a paintball or even lazer trek field i think, and like was said earlier, it has to be a ltd corporation so your not liable only the name of your business. its dooable though, and very rewarding.
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a Systema PTW is like KD, where the noodles are plated in gold and the cheese sauce is actually a pool of hot naked women.
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Old June 9th, 2005, 15:08   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swatt13
I help operate a paintball field and our lawyer stated the same, any real lawyer coudl burn that waiver in court. the only good it does is (for the less educated people who dont know this), deteres them from starting anything legal against you.
That all depends on the case. If negligence is involved, no matter what you put in the waiver, its going to be hard to defend, even if you state in the waiver that you're not responsible for negligence. But again, that depends on the merits of the case.

I do corporate contracts and have defended them in court in the past and I can tell you that if your case has no merit, it doesn't much matter how good your lawyer is, it will get tossed. Despite the encroachment of the American legal-liability circus, Canadian courts are still relatively smart when it comes to this stuff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swatt13
but ya its the same insurance as for a paintball or even lazer trek field i think, and like was said earlier, it has to be a ltd corporation so your not liable only the name of your business. its dooable though, and very rewarding.
Keep in mind about 3 or 4 years ago they changed 'limited liability' corporations so that directors can be sued now. After the stock market build up and melt down and scandles like ENRON, the laws were changed so that there is always someone at the end of the line to go after when things go wrong. And if its negligence, you can always be sued personally as well as through your employing entity. I own 50% of a limited liability company and we started carrying liability insurance 3 years ago, both corporate and directors (personal).
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Old June 9th, 2005, 15:37   #34
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No pics of the field yet...i move there on the 29th... from what i see it's mostly forest but it slopes up and it's an L shape....no structures yet, but we'll change that...i'll try and get up there this weekend to take some pics for u guys...
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Old June 9th, 2005, 15:50   #35
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[QUOTE=Scarecrow]
Quote:
Originally Posted by swatt13
I
Keep in mind about 3 or 4 years ago they changed 'limited liability' corporations so that directors can be sued now. After the stock market build up and melt down and scandles like ENRON, the laws were changed so that there is always someone at the end of the line to go after when things go wrong. And if its negligence, you can always be sued personally as well as through your employing entity. I own 50% of a limited liability company and we started carrying liability insurance 3 years ago, both corporate and directors (personal).
And here is the crux of the matter, and why to protect yourself you need to do things legit,

You need to incorporate, Insure, and make certain you have coverage for directors and officers.

It is all well and good to go into an endeavor with the "it will be alright, nothing will happen" approach.. but the fact is things do happen, every day to people who thought they had planned for all contingencies.. only to loose everything for the sake of saving a few bucks.

You can mitigate some of this risk with informed consent.. (waivers) it is true you can't waive your right to sue.. but the existance of a waiver goes a long way to eliminate the grounds for a legal complaint. That said you can still spend Thousands to get a case thrown out. At lease if you are insured, it will be the insurer who will pay that bill.


There is a real need in this community to leverage the total membership to acheive economy of scale in the solicitation of insurance and such. This is a role for an association to take on. Then players, field owners, game sponsors can operate without putting their entire future on the line every time there is a game.
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Old June 9th, 2005, 17:03   #36
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oh. wow! I didnt know that scarecrow, thanks. I should probably bring that to my boss' attention. he thinks the same way I do on this matter. I didnt realize that much had changed..... might wanna make sure our asses are still covered.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TokyoSeven
a Systema PTW is like KD, where the noodles are plated in gold and the cheese sauce is actually a pool of hot naked women.
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Old June 9th, 2005, 17:19   #37
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maybe scarecrow can be our legal counsel...forever FREE CHARGE if you get us up and running

but all joking aside...i think for this year we'll play it safe and focus on making our field BETTER...we'll have a couple guys from here test it out and ask them where they would like to see changes...is that a safe approach??
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Old June 9th, 2005, 17:25   #38
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As long as you can trust those guys enough not to sue your wealth off if they break a bone or something, it'll all be good.

I'd definitely focus on fixing up the field and having trial runs with a few of my close (or at least trusted) buddies to tweak it until you can afford the legal route.... which would ultimately be best.
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Old June 9th, 2005, 17:28   #39
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sounds like a plan...

so we'll keep all u guys posted on the progress... NOW....back to packing lol
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Old June 9th, 2005, 20:49   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freedom Fighter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adreniline Junky
just make up some waviers for people to sign before they play so they can't sue you if they get hurt.
In Canada you are not legally permitted to sign away your rights ... even volunteeraly. It's common practice to use them, but any lawyer would make the aforementioned argument, and the waiver would be null and void.

There has to be a clear intention to seriously hurt the person. Obviously, the precautions are in place (like mercy rules, etc.). The organizer is MAKING SURE that people will play safe, and as long as the rules are enforced to a T, legal issues would be very difficult to follow through with.

You're NOT signing away your rights, whatsoever - you're signing a declaration that states you are playing a sport which *may* be physically harmful, and that the area may *not* be completely safe, and that you (the waiver) is making an effort to play safe, and avoid injury. Based on that, you can go by the fact that the person did NOT try hard enough to avoid injury.

That's, of course, assuming all MAJOR problems, such as twenty feet drop-offs, are clearly marked off.


I know this because this one dog's owner doesn't give a rat's ass that his dog's bit seven people so far, many multiple times (myself included - fucking retard never ties him up properly). That's what the judge and the attorneys so far told us - basically, tough luck, and there's a whole lot of other BS we have to do before we have even a good chance at winning against him in court.
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Fucking bullshit. I just checked my flyers and I didn't get no 'Cluepons'. Assholes :rrr:
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Old June 9th, 2005, 21:06   #41
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Has anyone actually ever heard of someone sueing someone for an airsoft injury? Since airsoft guns are such a grey area I think it would be hard to make a case againest a "field owner"
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Old June 9th, 2005, 21:12   #42
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One thing that did stick from Scouts:

Hope for the best, but be prepared for the worst.
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Fucking bullshit. I just checked my flyers and I didn't get no 'Cluepons'. Assholes :rrr:
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