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Old August 25th, 2011, 13:34   #61
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Originally Posted by Neved4eyes View Post
Good points, I do agree with the group three things. I put alot into my gear, but I still don't see reason behind the whole chain of command, organized practices and team based thing. Thats more what I was getting at.
Understanding a Command & Control (C&C) structure helps more in a milsim game than in skirmishes. Having a Chain of Command (CoC), and being able to maintain contact with those above and under you allows for coordination in the field. And in large game, coordination comes down to being able to send, receive, acknowledge, and execute your commands.

Also, being part of a team (and yes, I do realize that not everyone wants to be part of a team) allows for the team to establish their own SOPs, comm codes, and tactics, which leads to better overall team coordination and combat effectiveness.

In the end, though, it comes down to personal preference. So, if teams aren't your thing, then don't join one. However, others may prefer a team structure, and therefore, joining one makes sense TO THEM.
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Old August 25th, 2011, 13:39   #62
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Neved4eyes, don't post like that, try to consolidate your posts in one with a multiquotes if you really need too.

For CQB engagement in building or in dense wooded erea, airsoft weapons mimic well what you can expect from a real weapon to a practical extent IMO. Sure the penetration is not comparable. But I beleive what is similar, is how you employ your weapon, how you comunicate, coordonate and react.

I guess the majority of the players behave like insurgents would in the real world. So, taking asside the marksmenship and longuer range engagement, Airsoft fill the need IMO. Maybe even better than MILES or Simunition.
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Old August 25th, 2011, 13:42   #63
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Originally Posted by Neved4eyes View Post
Do you think airsoft is a reasonable training tool? I assume you are referring to military training. I could understand team involvement, a good way to practice communication in battle but we are talking about weapons that shoot nothing close to the real things. I would think that it might tamper with the sense of engagement if soldiers trained using airsoft because if real life your talking about 200-400 yards engagement rather then 200 feet as with airsoft. Are you personally involved with the military? If so, please let everyone in on how the training associated with airsoft works, and if my points are valid, or if they are not. Thanks for the great response!
well in CQB engagements are pretty much the same distances as in the real life
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Old August 25th, 2011, 14:00   #64
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Originally Posted by Neved4eyes View Post
Do you think airsoft is a reasonable training tool? I assume you are referring to military training. I could understand team involvement, a good way to practice communication in battle but we are talking about weapons that shoot nothing close to the real things. I would think that it might tamper with the sense of engagement if soldiers trained using airsoft because if real life your talking about 200-400 yards engagement rather then 200 feet as with airsoft. Are you personally involved with the military? If so, please let everyone in on how the training associated with airsoft works, and if my points are valid, or if they are not. Thanks for the great response!

Any of the work that I have done regarding Professional training with Airsoft guns was for CQB.

airsoft guns are excellent tools for this purpose. their effective range is well within typical close quarters engagement ranges.

Even Simunitions is limited for range, and generally used for CQB training as well.

to get anything approaching effective range of real weapon training you pretty much are in to laser based systems .. and big dollars

Personally, this is why I much prefer playing in a CQB environment where the confines of the space is within the effective range of airsoft guns or playing at night where the enagagement range is reduced due to low light.

I don't really enjoy outdoor daylight games .. as I find it frustrating to have a clear line of sight on a person but be unable to effectively engage them.
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Old August 25th, 2011, 14:05   #65
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I think I'm somewhere In between 2 and 3. While I may not be an older player that spends their entire income on airsoft, I've got high equipment that I take pride in. I like to play skirmishes and milsim, but am starting to transition to more milsim; running and gunning can only be fun for so long.

Also, It may not be fair to players, but I cannot stand when I come with my "Gucci" gear doing my best to simulate a soldier (In this case, russian. So I've got the tourniquet, Smersh, Gorka and all that real stuff.) and some guy who's been playing for a year or so asks me why I have useless stuff all over my gun, and he's standing in jeans and a mix-match of camo. I spend my money trying to create an environment for myself that feels like a soldier, and I find those types of people wreck it for me.
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Old August 25th, 2011, 14:35   #66
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I myself have seen very few teams that think they are doing military training, but yup, they do exist. I do know teams that run training often, but in an airsoft capacity. Things like bounding, clearing rooms, ..ect. Basically team building exercises. And it shows. Organized and prepared means your team is going to be more effective at a milsim. Things like radios, hand signals, and the like can improve gameplay. For a lot of us it's more of a sport, than just a game.

Having fun is key, but people have different ideas of what's fun. And sometimes we point a player in a direction of a team that may be more fitting. "Casual" players are not necessarily bad at playing. Gear after all doesn't make a player after all. Experience, effort, and having the nak for it does. However there are certain definitive lines as to what your gear is will start making a big difference. Things like finely tuned guns, proper camouflage, night vision, and team based tactics will give players an extreme advantage.

Command structure does become necessary at a point. Teams that play strictly for fun may not find this useful. But depending on the type of team you have it will make a difference. That's not saying a strict "everyone had a rank" system is always the way to go. Everyone who is out there should be there for the team. We treat all of our players with respect, and work together to play the sport. We have a few that are command staff. Players with experience, that are well thought of by the players, and are concerned for the team as a whole. This way someone is on hand to make a decision if a dispute arises, and enforce safety rules, and sportsmanlike conduct. But we do work with all players to take charge in a game scenario.

I personally don't wear anything on my loadout that is strictly for look. All the power to the guys that carry useless equipment, or ballistic plates and things like that. We wear full tactical gear, but nothing that doesn't serve a purpose. We have had players that wanted to run the jeans and t-shirt combo, or wear things because they look cool. This is fine on our weekend skirmishes. But they usually don't hang around long. They are to easily seen, and constantly get ambushed. So we try to find them a group more their speed.

The bigger the game challenge, the more realism, and the tougher the competition is the way we like it. We have had fun at the whole "all are welcome, casual skirmishes". But we find the big multi objective, 24 hour, explosions, complicated mission, tactical milsims are the best. The problems players have is simply attending games, joining teams, or trying to fit into a play style that isn't their speed. I can't stand people who complain about things that don't suit them. If this is the case, then your in the wrong area.

Even things like FPS, equipment of your competitors, and getting slaughtered by better equipt more experienced teams have caused players to whine. Your simply a player that doesn't fit there. Look for players, teams, and games that suit you. Don't expect others to dumb it down, or vise versa. Everyone is allowed to have their own style, and expectations. We generally look at other teams like ours, and share or interact rules and ideas. This is our community, and that's yours.

The most important thing in airsoft is to have fun, respect all, and do our part to keep this sport looking good. It doesn't matter what sub category you fit into; 1, 2, 3, 4 whatever. Look for your "group", and make the best of it. Don't look down on others for their way. Or try to change or complain about others sport, or game style because you don't understand.
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Old August 25th, 2011, 15:11   #67
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Originally Posted by Ricochet View Post
I myself have seen very few teams that think they are doing military training, but yup, they do exist. I do know teams that run training often, but in an airsoft capacity. Things like bounding, clearing rooms, ..ect. Basically team building exercises. And it shows. Organized and prepared means your team is going to be more effective at a milsim. Things like radios, hand signals, and the like can improve gameplay. For a lot of us it's more of a sport, than just a game.

Having fun is key, but people have different ideas of what's fun. And sometimes we point a player in a direction of a team that may be more fitting. "Casual" players are not necessarily bad at playing. Gear after all doesn't make a player after all. Experience, effort, and having the nak for it does. However there are certain definitive lines as to what your gear is will start making a big difference. Things like finely tuned guns, proper camouflage, night vision, and team based tactics will give players an extreme advantage.

Command structure does become necessary at a point. Teams that play strictly for fun may not find this useful. But depending on the type of team you have it will make a difference. That's not saying a strict "everyone had a rank" system is always the way to go. Everyone who is out there should be there for the team. We treat all of our players with respect, and work together to play the sport. We have a few that are command staff. Players with experience, that are well thought of by the players, and are concerned for the team as a whole. This way someone is on hand to make a decision if a dispute arises, and enforce safety rules, and sportsmanlike conduct. But we do work with all players to take charge in a game scenario.

I personally don't wear anything on my loadout that is strictly for look. All the power to the guys that carry useless equipment, or ballistic plates and things like that. We wear full tactical gear, but nothing that doesn't serve a purpose. We have had players that wanted to run the jeans and t-shirt combo, or wear things because they look cool. This is fine on our weekend skirmishes. But they usually don't hang around long. They are to easily seen, and constantly get ambushed. So we try to find them a group more their speed.

The bigger the game challenge, the more realism, and the tougher the competition is the way we like it. We have had fun at the whole "all are welcome, casual skirmishes". But we find the big multi objective, 24 hour, explosions, complicated mission, tactical milsims are the best. The problems players have is simply attending games, joining teams, or trying to fit into a play style that isn't their speed. I can't stand people who complain about things that don't suit them. If this is the case, then your in the wrong area.

Even things like FPS, equipment of your competitors, and getting slaughtered by better equipt more experienced teams have caused players to whine. Your simply a player that doesn't fit there. Look for players, teams, and games that suit you. Don't expect others to dumb it down, or vise versa. Everyone is allowed to have their own style, and expectations. We generally look at other teams like ours, and share or interact rules and ideas. This is our community, and that's yours.

The most important thing in airsoft is to have fun, respect all, and do our part to keep this sport looking good. It doesn't matter what sub category you fit into; 1, 2, 3, 4 whatever. Look for your "group", and make the best of it. Don't look down on others for their way. Or try to change or complain about others sport, or game style because you don't understand.
+100. I have played at the Brooks field, and it RULES! Also, the people I played with were some cool dudes. Can't wait for another milsim down there, definitely attending! Will also be better prepared next time. I would like to call myself a serious airsofter, but haven't been in the sport that long. I used to think to myself,"oh what an elitist." but then I played airsoft with the brooks team (Team SWAT) and realized that they were just very serious and dedicated. And now, I call myself an elitist lol.
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Old August 25th, 2011, 18:20   #68
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Originally Posted by FOX_111 View Post
Neved4eyes, don't post like that, try to consolidate your posts in one with a multiquotes if you really need too.

For CQB engagement in building or in dense wooded erea, airsoft weapons mimic well what you can expect from a real weapon to a practical extent IMO. Sure the penetration is not comparable. But I beleive what is similar, is how you employ your weapon, how you comunicate, coordonate and react.

I guess the majority of the players behave like insurgents would in the real world. So, taking asside the marksmenship and longuer range engagement, Airsoft fill the need IMO. Maybe even better than MILES or Simunition.
Sorry about that!! I just figured out how to use the multiple quote thing after I read your post. Thanks for the heads up!
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Old August 25th, 2011, 22:02   #69
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I like to think I'm in Group 3. I literally think about airsoft every hour of the day. My only qualms are that I live in bumf**k nowhere.

And it does kill the mood of a game when you see someone with a neon or clearsoft gun and a hoodie.
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Old August 25th, 2011, 22:31   #70
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If airsoft had come along ten or twenty years sooner in my life, I'd definitely be a group 3 player. Being the oldest player in my local area means allowances for age have to be made, and group 2 is about where I'd slot in.

Of all the frustrations I feel in airsoft, the worst is the frustration of realizing I was born to be an infantry soldier. Playing airsoft made me realize that would've been my true calling.
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Old August 26th, 2011, 03:16   #71
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I tend to take having a fun time in any recreational hobby or activity that i participate in, fairly seriously. This includes Airsoft.

I've only been in for a few games so far. I am doing this for fairly different reasons than most (i'm 99% sure on that) and as such realize that i am likely a 'handicap' upon whichever team that i may play on, as seriously as i might take the play, and as much as i try to respect the rules of the game.

Aside from an extended stint in cadets more than a 1/4 century ago, and a brief period in the reserves before i realized it wasn't for me, and more importantly i wasn't for them.. i don't have a military background, or a team oriented mindset. As such, at this time i do feel uncomfortable with donning field-correct military gear. It's just too close to being a wanna-be for me personally, to be potentially disrespecting the real-deal. As such, i am perfectly happy in running/hobbling about in my black BDU's for now, in the skirmish/scenarios at the local field events that i am going to. For now, i am also concentrating on building up my gear collection around this style of field dress - budgetary constraints require this, no matter how serious i'd like to think i am about Airsoft, I may comparatively stand out in a sea of CADPAT and MARPAT, but it isn't as informal as jeans and a hoodie, either. From wherever the rounds may be incoming from, the chances are that i'm going to get stitched.. it doesn't really matter what that person doing the stitching is wearing, to me.. it's all good.

Whatever any one else wants to do in respect to that equipment/realism/immersion aspect, go for it, whatever floats your boat - it all comes down to a personal choice and mindset. Perhaps my own personal mindset towards field correct realism will change, with more exposure to mil-sim scenario's, and the need to conform, in the future - only time will tell.

I am in it not only for the shooting and the strategy, I am also into it for getting outdoors, for the social aspect, the occasional adrenaline rush, and the opportunity for exercise in a varied environment. It's also a trip back in the past when i did similar woodsy things as a teenager .. mid-life crisis's can take many forms. Being able to lug about an 8 lb cool looking simulated carbine is just a bonus, to me.

I guess that throws me squarely into the middle between the hypothetical groups of 1 and 2. I haven't quite made the transition into group 2 yet. Whatever category that i may well fall into, i'm having enough fun that i plan to be around for a while, and that's what really counts in the end.

Last edited by HackD; August 26th, 2011 at 04:31..
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Old August 26th, 2011, 06:20   #72
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I've been playing in Italy for the past three years and it can get pretty serious over here in terms of impersonation. The team I play with are Royal Marine nuts. The head of the team is this old dude called "Grey" (although he's in damn good shape for his age!) and he's mad about getting authentic gear from all over the bloody place and sends the team eBay spam on deals he's found all the time LOL!

Personally though, I think I might be in group 2 but play like Im in 3. When I play, I play aggressively (Not to mean I beat on people) and to win. Im all for Milsim and its what personally like. Seeing a team work seamlessly together is a sight to behold and being part of team like that is... well.... to keep this PG, is pretty awesome.

However, it is a game and there is a line. What I do not like is when Airsofter's get cocky because they are veritable info-sponges and can quote text and verse weapons characteristics, the type of weave Navy Seals use on their fast ropes or what company makes the issued underwear for the USMC.

That shits annoying as hell. LOL!
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Old August 26th, 2011, 06:32   #73
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Though through different circumstances and life timelines, I would have to agree with HackD.

I would love to enjoy the same level of play as Group 4, but the game never becomes more than a game. I don't ever want it to be more than a game.

I played Football and loved it. I would absolutely thrive in an Airsoft team that
approached our game with the same level of intensity and drive as in sport.
I worry, however, that as partakers in a protected niche activity that sometimes we look for like-minded individuals down to the laces when selecting team-mates and competitors before recognizing that as Airsoft enthusiasts we are all like-minded.

Milsim is Milsim and casual is casual and ne'er the two shall meet.

Well I think that's horseshit.
I see lots of threads about politics and who's gear is better and what combination thereof deserves respect.
I see threads about cheating and field decorum and go out to games and see players expecting the worst out of each-other.

Serious or not, I think the community needs a shakeup.
I played years of Paintball. By fortune and character I managed to be picked up by a 'Country Club' of sorts, comprised of dedicated and experienced individuals (most of whome were at least 10 years older than me at the time).
They could find few decent adults to play with because their sport had branched into supporting the lowest common denominator over the concerned veteran, in favor of profits.

Does Airsoft want to become Paintball?
As far as I can tell, absolutely not.
But it is, and it will, as long as community leaders retain a policy of prejudice and isolationism.
Whether it seems like fun or not, the de-facto Patriarchs of Airsoft have to step up and advertise their way of play or they will lose control of the majority.
They have to be open and accommodating or there will be no base to draw from.

Groups 4 and 3 will die if they do not have a positive place and presence in 1 and 2.
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Old August 26th, 2011, 09:38   #74
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I take it as seriously as I do any other hobby... and it is just that, a hobby. It is a game. I do not consider it anything more than a game, however you will find some here that live and die by the 'bb'.

So how serious do I take it? Well... just ask anyone about the 'Great Aquamarine Cock-Cannon'...
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Old August 26th, 2011, 09:44   #75
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just ask anyone about the 'Great Aquamarine Cock-Cannon'...
LOL! I don't even want to know bro!
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