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Old May 2nd, 2011, 20:46   #1
R1ghty
 
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Weaksauce Range

I bought a we m4 a while ago (ver 4 on propane), Been plinking in and around the house. I've stripped it down, cleaned and lubed it a couple times now.

I got to open it up on the weekend, and it was horrible. Trees what were within throwing distance I had a hard time hitting, the range on it sucks, and the bb's were curving right and left around the trees I was shooting at.

A couple days before, I took it to flag raiders to chrono it to see what it was shooting. 380/400/370/400/360/350, I then had some problems with the white bolt guide(delrin spacer/alignment block) sliding forwards and catching on the hammer.

Its got a tsc/tsd hard kick tube, which I stuffed paper in so it is one solid block.
I'm guessing Its kicking too hard and moving the block,

The range is just pathetic. I'm better throwing bb's.. I'm guessing a new hopup?

Also sometimes when I shoot I get propane poofs in my face, with lube moisture at the rear seams. that I think might be a worn mag rubber seal..

SO... new hopup, mag seal and drill/tap the bolt so the guide stays in place?
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Old May 2nd, 2011, 21:49   #2
m102404
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I would never say the closed bolt hopup is stellar in any way. It's an evil consequence of that model.

It's actually a very simple hopup...but it is certainly erratic. Personally...I mod my hopup rubbers. Mine do shoot very straight (latest modded one was tested out this past weekend).

The range is not as good as some other rifles. My PTW, my buddy's FAL, and probably a host of other rifles shoot further than my WE M4/PDW.

It is not a "magic" gun...it is not the be all and end all of an airsoft gun. It does offer a lot of fun per trigger pull. That's why I use it.

The white spacer creep has been written up many times...and fixes/solutions to that.

Don't know what tube you're talking about...buffer tube? Why would you pack it with paper?

A new hopup won't do much...lots of guy have said good things about the stinger one (and they're certainly better than the stock one).

The propane nose you're getting is from the gas being used by the blow back cycle...there's nothing wrong or that can be done about that. Oil seeping between the receiver indicates that you're oil is lubed in your mags. You can back off a bit on how much oil you're using.
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Old May 2nd, 2011, 22:17   #3
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Originally Posted by m102404 View Post
I would never say the closed bolt hopup is stellar in any way. It's an evil consequence of that model.

It's actually a very simple hopup...but it is certainly erratic. Personally...I mod my hopup rubbers. Mine do shoot very straight (latest modded one was tested out this past weekend).

The range is not as good as some other rifles. My PTW, my buddy's FAL, and probably a host of other rifles shoot further than my WE M4/PDW.

It is not a "magic" gun...it is not the be all and end all of an airsoft gun. It does offer a lot of fun per trigger pull. That's why I use it.

The white spacer creep has been written up many times...and fixes/solutions to that.

Don't know what tube you're talking about...buffer tube? Why would you pack it with paper?

A new hopup won't do much...lots of guy have said good things about the stinger one (and they're certainly better than the stock one).

The propane nose you're getting is from the gas being used by the blow back cycle...there's nothing wrong or that can be done about that. Oil seeping between the receiver indicates that you're oil is lubed in your mags. You can back off a bit on how much oil you're using.
erratic=inacurate?
I read people making consistant bodyshots with a pistol at 50ft, I'd imagine my rifle should at least double that... I'd be lucky at 50-75ft, and it would probably take 3-5rounds to hit.

My hopup seems consistent, as the bbs almost always drop a good foot-2foot below my scopes lowest setting at 50ft. The left-right is about the same radius as the arc.

Sometimes I get propane nose, Sometimes I get propane wind to the face. Sometimes I see a poof of gas. (seeing it would most likely be over-oiling)
I'm thinking the mag seal is weak, venting gas out the sides are rear.

As for oiling, I have a madbull metal propane adapter, which I throw a couple drops in where I'm supposed to every couple mags.

Range? I dunno if I'm missing something but a .28g bb at 400fps should travel the same distance between rifles. Longer barrels might affect accuracy, but not distance.

the tube I'm talking about is this:
Inside it is a hunk of lead. When firing it smashes back and forth, making a high pitch clink. I put paper inside it so it is one weight.

I might just get a longer barrel too, I dunno. I'm just greatly dissapointed with range/accuracy. My paintball gun could tripple this gun in every aspect. 40 yr old break barrel pellet guns shooting straighter/farther? I dunno.

Would be nice to game it, but if a sidearm has longer range than my rifle, what good is it?
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Old May 2nd, 2011, 23:28   #4
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The guys are doing a tech/range session this weekend...there'll be plenty of gas rifles there. I'll see if they can't put up some standard targets (probably just a letter sheet of paper) and pace off the range.

I do notice that the effective range of my gas rifles is less than that of my other electric rifles. And I know that it's due to the hopup rubber. There's very little there to put a lot of hop on BBs. I can get decent range out of it (I'm horrible with distances so I won't guess at this point).

For me...it's gameable (otherwise I wouldn't use it). I shoot within it's effective range (i.e. where I know I'll have a high probability to hit)...and haven't found it too lacking. Lacking only in that I'd love to always have the range and accuracy I get off a PTW.

As with any gas gun...if you slow the recoil down (i.e. put a stiffer spring in there....or make the bolt heavier, which in essence you're doing)...you'll use more gas on the recoil cycle of the system. However, maybe not an issue having swapped out the lead for paper. Dunno.
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Old May 3rd, 2011, 18:44   #5
R1ghty
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m102404 View Post
The guys are doing a tech/range session this weekend...there'll be plenty of gas rifles there. I'll see if they can't put up some standard targets (probably just a letter sheet of paper) and pace off the range.

I do notice that the effective range of my gas rifles is less than that of my other electric rifles. And I know that it's due to the hopup rubber. There's very little there to put a lot of hop on BBs. I can get decent range out of it (I'm horrible with distances so I won't guess at this point).

For me...it's gameable (otherwise I wouldn't use it). I shoot within it's effective range (i.e. where I know I'll have a high probability to hit)...and haven't found it too lacking. Lacking only in that I'd love to always have the range and accuracy I get off a PTW.

As with any gas gun...if you slow the recoil down (i.e. put a stiffer spring in there....or make the bolt heavier, which in essence you're doing)...you'll use more gas on the recoil cycle of the system. However, maybe not an issue having swapped out the lead for paper. Dunno.
Is the test session private? depending on where it is I might join.

About the buffer tube, I left the lead in, and packed in paper so the lead doesn't slide back and forth(acting against the bolt)

If the bolt is heavy, and hard to move back, it will take more gas to start the movement, which means the trigger sear will be in contact with the mag's valve for a longer duration. This will use more gas from the mag, but shouldn't take any away from the bb.
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Old May 3rd, 2011, 18:54   #6
m102404
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you don't need to quote every post...they won't go anywhere...

Sorry...it's a team thing/BBQ in prep for a big milsim

Nope...I didn't say anything about the heavier bolt altering any amount of gas usage used for propelling the BB. That's solely up to the valve, length of barrel and BB weight.

I meant more so about the amount of gas you're getting in your face...the heavier bolt needs more gas to recoil...and it's going to go somewhere.

Re. range and accuracy...I'd encourage you to try different BB weights (most guys I know shoot 0.30's, but it's worth trying 0.28's and 0.25's). I'd also encourage you to try modding your hopup rubber or trying the Stinger hopup. Extra hopup rubbers are easy to get if you're worried about messing your one and only up. The accuracy difference between my PDW and my buddy's is dramatic re. the lack of left/right flyers (we were shooting side by side at the last game from a tower and I took some spotting shots at some trees to guage how effective the mod was).
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Old May 3rd, 2011, 19:04   #7
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Yup. That was my pdw with the right hand fliers. The short (tys) and long (mine) pdw's have virtually the same range since the barrel length is so short to begin with and the difference in length is about 2 inches max.

My hopup rubber is bone stock and I feel that that is the reason for my issues. The stinger one will be going in on Saturday.

Range wise, we were both pretty much dead even except for the slight odd right hook out past 120 feet. I did not get the hook on every single shot. Anything within that distance was bang on target. Might have been the bio bastards as it's the first time I gamed this rifle with bastard bio .28's.
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Old May 3rd, 2011, 19:17   #8
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My WE PDW has good range - as good as most short AEGs. I have an issue with over-hop though. I have the hopup dialed completely off, but if I use anything less than .25, my BBs arc straight up at about 50 feet out. For close range, it's good, but not so much for outdoors. With .28, I get a nice flight path, but I do get the occasional BB that decides to take a sharp right hook about 30 feet out...
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Old May 3rd, 2011, 21:48   #9
m102404
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When you get the chamber/inner out of the outer barrel...turn the hopup all the way off. Look down it from the chamber in and note how much of the rubber nub is sticking down into the barrel. I will guess:
1. It's crooked...there's seems to be some retard at the factory who just slaps the rubber on and doesn't bother to make sure the nub is fully pushed through the hole. To fix that you'll need to get it taken down to just the inner and hopup rubber...pop the rubber off to check for permanent damage (a little memory dent of its misplacement is ok and will wear out)...then put it back in properly (then check #2).

2. It's sticking really quite a bit into the barrel. Too much. Basically I buff/sand the nub down until I can just see a bit of it when the hopup is off (guessing taking off a bit more than half of what you can see pre-mod). (take it apart...flip the ring inside out and put it back on...that'll position the nub nicely...buff the nub off evenly with 400/600grit emery paper, maybe a bit coarser to start...check often). At that point you'll probably have too little hop for 0.30's...but finer hopup adjustment. So...I use a little circle punch I made on the lathe to punch out discs from shrinkwrap material (seems to be a nice combo of thin enough and stiff enough). When reassembling it I drop a "shim" or two of the material down the hole, then the BB, then put the rest of it back together.

Doing the above you'll still see some nub when the hopup is off...but not nearly as much. The sharp corners of the nub will be gone too (which is part of what I think leads to the hooking). As you adjust the hopup on, you might not see a whole lot move down into the barrel (you'll see some), but it'll be progressively stiffer since there isn't as much rubber nub to be "squishy". It'll have a bit of a rougher surface too (molded vs. 600grit finish)...so you'll probably see the action even out after a number of rounds through it.

Hope that helps guys...like I said...if you're skittish about doing your own, buy an extra hopup rubber first...or get the Stinger hopup (it's basically premolded the same way with much less of a bump and plastic/paper shims).
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Old May 3rd, 2011, 21:50   #10
m102404
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Coach...how far was it to the tree that we were shooting at? (I fail at eyeballing range)
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Old May 3rd, 2011, 21:54   #11
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Honestly not sure. Probably more like 200 feet but I can't remember. I just put 120 feet as a number but it was likely a lot more to the tree we were shooting at. We'll pace it out Saturday and get some numbers.
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Old May 3rd, 2011, 21:56   #12
m102404
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Thanks Coach. All I know about range is "hit-able", "maybe hit-able, but probably not" and "don't bother".
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