Airsoft Canada
MILSIG

Go Back   Airsoft Canada > Information Center > Newbie Tank
Home Forums Register Gallery FAQ Calendar
Retailers Community News/Info International Retailers IRC Today's Posts

Do tightbores bring down the FPS?

:

Newbie Tank

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old January 20th, 2011, 12:21   #16
L473ncy
 
L473ncy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: 11-30-24-1W5
Pretty sure it's a CYMA rebrand from Cybergun..... Anyways, you're not looking at 453 on .20's (maybe on .12's). It'll probably closer to ~380 stock and after it settles in I'd say probably a little under the 360 mark.

Get a chrono (or someone with one) to check it out though. If it's shooting over easiest way is to get a new spring. An M110 is what I'd recommend so you're definitely within the limits for outdoor play.
__________________
ಠ_ಠLess QQ more Pew Pew
READY TO >> RACE
L473ncy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 20th, 2011, 12:38   #17
StrikeFreedom
 
StrikeFreedom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Markham
I still think the BB bounces out

Study by Systema:
http://www.systema-engineering.com/E...unchiku3-1.htm

StrikeFreedom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 21st, 2011, 04:21   #18
ThunderCactus
Not Eye Safe
 
ThunderCactus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Calgary...now with less oil industry than eco-hipster Vancouver
Is this the same Systema that makes garbage 6.04mm tightbores and puts crap motors in $2400 guns?
Yeah I don't buy anything they say anymore.

Manufacturers can be way off on their ratings, higher quality manufacturers are usually rpetty close, ehobbyasia is just freaking awful they're usually out by a good 100fps
Refer to this chart for FPS ratings on springs;
http://www.airsoftcanada.com/SpringChart.php
__________________
Tamiya connectors suck.
Quote:
Originally Posted by swatt13 View Post
i never understood why the oil refinery had a brothel... i never see them at the refineries i work at this is bull!
ThunderCactus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 14th, 2011, 01:22   #19
supermohawk
 
supermohawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Medicine Hat, Alberta
Well finally I resolved this issue. The reason for the delay is I lived in Medicine Hat no Airsoft there. But now I am in Calgary so I went to IA Airsoft and got it chronographed 453 FPS with .20g bbs, WOW. it is currently being downgraded to 400fps.
supermohawk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 14th, 2011, 01:35   #20
CDN_Stalker
Official ASC Bladesmith
 
CDN_Stalker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Ottawa, Ont.
Send a message via MSN to CDN_Stalker
Heck, go 20-40fps than 400fps lower for better performance if you are downgrading it!!
CDN_Stalker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 14th, 2011, 02:44   #21
L473ncy
 
L473ncy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: 11-30-24-1W5
Quote:
Originally Posted by supermohawk View Post
The reason for the delay is I lived in Medicine Hat no Airsoft there. But now I am in Calgary so I went to IA Airsoft and got it chronographed 453 FPS with .20g bbs, WOW. it is currently being downgraded to 400fps.
FYI. There's a couple guys in Med Hat and Brooks as well and like 5 or so in Lethbridge.

PS: I agree with Stalker, 10-20 FPS lower isn't the end of the world. I was playing at ~365 on .20's for a little while before switching it up to 410 (I officially play as a "DMR" with 60 ft. MED and single shot) but I might bring it down to 390 so I can play elsewhere.
__________________
ಠ_ಠLess QQ more Pew Pew
READY TO >> RACE
L473ncy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 14th, 2011, 14:04   #22
Ricochet
Can I ask you a serious question? How much sand can you fit in your vagina?
 
Ricochet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: North Delta, BC (Greater Vancouver)
A few of our team AEG's guns are shooting 400 - 410 range. This was done with a M130 spring, and a PDI 6.01mm tightbore. Unfortunately one gun to the next isn't always exactly the same. Chrono is the only way to be sure.
Ricochet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 14th, 2011, 14:47   #23
Grudge
multitech
 
Grudge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: with your girlfriend, playing with her P90.
Quote:
Originally Posted by StrikeFreedom View Post
I still think the BB bounces out

Study by Systema:
http://www.systema-engineering.com/E...unchiku3-1.htm

You will also notice that they have the projectile coming in at a steep angle. That should not be the case in an airsoft rifle.
__________________
Nothing says loving, like a head shot!
Grudge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 14th, 2011, 15:35   #24
m102404
Tys
 
m102404's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Toronto
There was an article circulating years ago about tightbores...basically a "what's it about and how tight is too tight accuracy vs. FPS".

Re. the OP question...first you'll need to know what the inner of the existing barrel is. If it's 6.03/6.04 already...switching to a 6.03mm tightbore may not do anything at all. From that article and some other observations tighter than 6.04mm and you start to see drop off in FPS (again, I doubt you'll see 20+ FPS drop) and higher rates of jams.

The "old" guestimates was that going from a 6.08mm barrel to a 6.04mm barrel would net you ~7-15ish FPS.

The ONLY way to tell is to use a chronograph.

Re. the bouncing thing...I'm sure there are bounces in the barrel...and I certainly hope it's not more than 2, one right after/at the hopup and another partway down the barrel (at worst). The projectile is traveling a fairly short distance at relatively high speeds...carried by a cushion of air.

If the BB bounced multiple times down the barrel you'd see highly variable hopup application and significant FPS losses. If it "spiral-bounced" down the barrel you'd see shots all over the place (akin to when guys have their hopup nubs set off center or jammed in crooked).
m102404 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 14th, 2011, 16:15   #25
Ricochet
Can I ask you a serious question? How much sand can you fit in your vagina?
 
Ricochet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: North Delta, BC (Greater Vancouver)
Absolutely. One school of though is that the Cushion of air trying to force it's way around the BB, stops it from contacting the sides. But either way, if the BB was contacting the sides of the barrel, it's trajectory would cause it to slide along the inner barrel for a short time. Not bounce back and forth a bunch. It is possible I suppose for the spin put on the BB to also hold it against the top or bottom of the barrel, the whole way out. I don't know for sure, I'm not a gymnast. But, something to think on anyways.

Also depending on BB weight, velocity, and barrel diameter you may have a bad combination. Tighter isn't always better. There is kind of a balancing act.
Ricochet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 15th, 2011, 04:32   #26
ThunderCactus
Not Eye Safe
 
ThunderCactus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Calgary...now with less oil industry than eco-hipster Vancouver
Most important thing is not necessarily barrel diameter, but barrel QUALITY. I've personally seen high quality 6.08 barrels outperform cheaper 6.05 barrels. As long as your BB doesn't hit anything, get redirected, and you maintain laminar airflow behind the BB, you get stupid crazy accuracy.

One thing that came up lately though is initial pressure.
And extremely important concept when comparing GBB to AEG.
For example, most of us use heavy ammo in pistols, even though they're only 280-300fps. You'll put a .25g or .28g BB into a STOCK 300fps pistol and get amazing range and accuracy out it.
Whereas if you put a .28g BB into a stock marui, even with optimal hop, your BB falls far short of a .20g!

So correct me if I'm wrong, but what I've figured is happening, is the AEG doesn't have enough initial pressure to get the spinning velocity it needs from the hop rubber. Because the piston starts it's travel so slowly, although there IS pressure being created, the BB may only be doing say 100fps when it leaves the hop rubber, and accelerates as it goes down the barrel. Of course the number goes down if you don't have a ported cylinder, since the piston doesn't have the velocity to build high pressure quickly
Whereas in a GBB, the propellant you are using is already compressed, and only needs to be applied. So right off the bat you start of with WAY higher pressure behind the BB. So when it leaves the hop rubber, let's say it's doing 200fps. So you get way more backspin on the BB, and with enough gas left to continue accelerating it on it's way out the barrel.

So my theory is based on the field performance of stock GBB pistols using heavy ammo, and both stock and upgraded AEGs of the same velocity using the same ammo. Infact sometimes of higher velocity, my 320fps HFC beretta was on par for range with some pretty nice 380fps AEGs...
Also, when you adjust your hop rubber, it's not so much the surface area of the rubber that matters, but the PRESSURE IT APPLIES. Making the gun require more pressure in order to get the BB past the hop rubber. And more initial pressure behind the BB means more inital FPS.

So if you compare a stock GBBR with a final muzzle velocity of 380fps on.20g BBs, with a stock AEG of the same. The GBBR should get better performance, because the GBBR can more effectively use heavier ammo, due to it's increased initial velocity.
Now comparing fully upgraded and tuned AEG's and PTWs (is it bad form to group those together? LOL), the gap isn't as far.
The only problem that occurs is in cooldown and ambient temperature, where your gas pressure drops (or raises) significantly, so it's going to have less short term repeatability over an AEG.
So like any other airsoft science, you can't use just one aspect to pick a gun. The GBBR will perform better stock, but it's a balance between how you shoot and the repeatability of the gun.

Ugh that's a mouthful
What do you guys think?
__________________
Tamiya connectors suck.
Quote:
Originally Posted by swatt13 View Post
i never understood why the oil refinery had a brothel... i never see them at the refineries i work at this is bull!

Last edited by ThunderCactus; September 15th, 2011 at 04:42..
ThunderCactus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 15th, 2011, 11:49   #27
m102404
Tys
 
m102404's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Toronto
I'd concur with those points.

Essentially you're comparing the difference in pressure curves (spring vs. gas) as they affect the hopup applied.

and...gas guns are more fun
m102404 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 15th, 2011, 17:56   #28
ILLusion
GBB Whisperer
 
ILLusion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Toronto
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderCactus View Post
Most important thing is not necessarily barrel diameter, but barrel QUALITY. I've personally seen high quality 6.08 barrels outperform cheaper 6.05 barrels. As long as your BB doesn't hit anything, get redirected, and you maintain laminar airflow behind the BB, you get stupid crazy accuracy.

One thing that came up lately though is initial pressure.
And extremely important concept when comparing GBB to AEG.
For example, most of us use heavy ammo in pistols, even though they're only 280-300fps. You'll put a .25g or .28g BB into a STOCK 300fps pistol and get amazing range and accuracy out it.
Whereas if you put a .28g BB into a stock marui, even with optimal hop, your BB falls far short of a .20g!

So correct me if I'm wrong, but what I've figured is happening, is the AEG doesn't have enough initial pressure to get the spinning velocity it needs from the hop rubber. Because the piston starts it's travel so slowly, although there IS pressure being created, the BB may only be doing say 100fps when it leaves the hop rubber, and accelerates as it goes down the barrel. Of course the number goes down if you don't have a ported cylinder, since the piston doesn't have the velocity to build high pressure quickly
Whereas in a GBB, the propellant you are using is already compressed, and only needs to be applied. So right off the bat you start of with WAY higher pressure behind the BB. So when it leaves the hop rubber, let's say it's doing 200fps. So you get way more backspin on the BB, and with enough gas left to continue accelerating it on it's way out the barrel.

So my theory is based on the field performance of stock GBB pistols using heavy ammo, and both stock and upgraded AEGs of the same velocity using the same ammo. Infact sometimes of higher velocity, my 320fps HFC beretta was on par for range with some pretty nice 380fps AEGs...
Also, when you adjust your hop rubber, it's not so much the surface area of the rubber that matters, but the PRESSURE IT APPLIES. Making the gun require more pressure in order to get the BB past the hop rubber. And more initial pressure behind the BB means more inital FPS.

So if you compare a stock GBBR with a final muzzle velocity of 380fps on.20g BBs, with a stock AEG of the same. The GBBR should get better performance, because the GBBR can more effectively use heavier ammo, due to it's increased initial velocity.
Now comparing fully upgraded and tuned AEG's and PTWs (is it bad form to group those together? LOL), the gap isn't as far.
The only problem that occurs is in cooldown and ambient temperature, where your gas pressure drops (or raises) significantly, so it's going to have less short term repeatability over an AEG.
So like any other airsoft science, you can't use just one aspect to pick a gun. The GBBR will perform better stock, but it's a balance between how you shoot and the repeatability of the gun.

Ugh that's a mouthful
What do you guys think?
I believe the theory is something completely different, and as follows:

Newton's Laws of Motion

The basis of classical mechanics. Think of it this way, it requires less energy to push an empty shopping cart, than a fully loaded one. Once you have it pushing, it will leave your hands rolling at greater energy than the empty cart, even if they are traveling at the same speed.

The reason why you see GBB's exhibiting a performance increase when switching to heavier ammunition, has nothing to do with initial pressure. Rather, it has everything to do with the expansion co-efficient of the compressed gas, combined with the liquid to gas phase conversion, AND the kinetic energy required to move a heavier mass versus a lighter mass.

The first thing that needs to be understood, is that spring powered pneumatic compression will always render the same amount of expansion energy from the spring. The spring will not push harder if there's a heavier projectile. The spring will not push less if there's a lighter projectile. If the spring is rated to push 1 Joule, it will push 1 Joule. End of story. This is just the basic nature of spring power.

Thus, SPRING POWER IS LINEAR, regardless of the mass of the projectile.

e.g. if you fire a 0.20g BB out of a spring powered gun at 1 Joule, it will deliver ~328fps at the muzzle (in theory. This is excluding other factors that affect power output.)
If you fire a 0.25g BB with the exact same gun set up with the 1 Joule spring, it will fire at 294fps. Despite being a lower velocity, the power relationship is linear, and 294fps with a 0.25g BB is STILL 1 Joule of power.


HOWEVER, with gas powered guns, the power output is NOT linear. This holds true, whether we are talking about a gas blowback airsoft pistol or a real steel sniper rifle. The concept of expansion co-efficient remains the same.

When you use a heavier projectile in a gas system, the muzzle energy will become HIGHER than if you were to use a lighter projectile.

e.g. if you fire a 0.20g BB from a gas gun rated at 1 Joule, it will deliver ~328fps at the muzzle (in theory. This is excluding other factors that affect power output.)
However, if you fire a 0.25g BB with the exact same gun set up, using the same gas, the BB will fire at a HIGHER muzzle energy. The actual velocity and muzzle energy delivered will depend on many factors, including the length of barrel, the bore, the gas routing system, the gas used, etc. The largest contributing factor is barrel length and bore. The longer and tighter the barrel, the larger the power curve increase.

Thus, GAS POWER IS CURVED!

It is NOT uncommon to see a gas gun shoot a 0.20g BB at 1 Joule (328fps), but once you drop in a 0.28g projectile in there, it will all of a sudden punch it out at 1.6 Joules, equivalent to 335fps! This is an extreme example, but it's not impossible for it to happen. On lower ends of the scale, the difference is not as extreme. In a Tokyo Marui Hi-Capa, for example, it is not strange to see a 0.1 Joule increase by going from 0.20g BB's to 0.25g BB.

In layman's terms, this means that shooting a 0.25g BB from a gas gun is going to provide more point blank pain than a 0.20g BB. The heavier the projectile shot out of a gas powered gun, the more it will hurt at the muzzle.

The Theory Behind the Phenomenom
Compressed gas requires time to expand, particularly in phase change systems like the ones we use (it converts from liquid to gas.) The volume of propane in gaseous state is higher than the volume of propane in a liquid state. The more time the gas has to expand, the greater the expanded volume.

When you fire a heavier BB from a gas gun, it stays in the barrel longer. It takes MORE energy to start it moving. It takes MORE energy to accelerate it. It takes MORE energy to push it out of the muzzle. The longer it takes to push it, accelerate it and move it, the more time the gas has to expand!



So, the basic differences between spring power and gas power, is that spring power output is a linear rate. A spring can't push MORE power if it needs to. Springs just don't work that way, whereas gas power output is at a curved rate. A gas system will use up as much gas and power as is required to push the mass and accelerate it to speed.

As an addendum on the mechanics of airsoft guns:

Spring expansion stops when it reaches it's terminal (physical) limitation. In the case of an AEG, this is when the piston head smacks the cylinder head. That's the end of the line. In some cases, the BB may not have even left the barrel yet!

Gas guns, on the other hand, generally work on a completely different mechanical principle. Gas guns work very much like a real gun in terms of the projectile release and mechanical cycling of the next round. In gas airsoft guns, as well as real guns, the slide or bolt does not start moving until the projectile has long left the barrel. Even when the projectile has left the barrel, the valve knocker is STILL holding the gas release valve open, and gas continues to pour out. Once the projectile has left the barrel, the slide or bolt begins the rearward cycle of the gas expansion process, at which point a disconnect lever is triggered to release the valve knocker. Until this valve knocker releases its power, it will continue to eject gas in to the chamber. Thus, you will never see "suckback" issues that you'll see in spring systems. The system is designed to use as much gas as is required to clear the BB from the barrel, regardless of the weight of the BB or the length/bore of the barrel. (This applies to most modern airsoft gas guns. Old gas guns had a set amount of gas output, regardless of projectile timing.)



"What does the muzzle power mean?"

The muzzle power refers to the energy that the projectile is leaving the muzzle. In layman's terms, 1 Joule of power at the muzzle will give you the same amount of point blank pain, regardless of how heavy the BB is. Thus, 1 0.20g BB at 328fps will hurt JUST AS MUCH as a 0.25g BB at 294fps. It is still 1 Joule of power.

UNDERSTAND, that fps is NOT a true indication of power. Muzzle Energy (measured as "Joules") is the true indicator. As an extreme example, let's just say that I would rather have a 0.01 gram feather smack me in the face at 500fps, than a 20 tonne boulder smack me in the face at the same velocity. One of those items will cave my face in. Guess which one it will be? The heavier item will carry a much larger energy than the lighter one.



Why Understanding this is Important for Airsofters

It's simple. Safety reasons. It's the reason why I continue to urge game hosts to set MUZZLE ENERGY limitations with the intended projectile weight, rather than to set velocity limitations!

If I were to be sneaky, I could step in to a game rated for 400fps max with 0.20g BBs (1.48 Joules) with my gas gun set up for that power, and it would pass. The game hosts have set up the game this way, thinking that at 400fps, it will minimize safety issues. However, once I hit the field, I could drop in 0.36g heavy sniper rounds, and all of a sudden, I could easily be punching out 1.8 Joules because of the above mentioned gas dynamics. Now, this 1.8 Joules of power is equivalent to 441fps with 0.20g BB's. In some cases the difference could be even higher! All of a sudden, I just gained 10% in power, I'd cause 10% more pain/damage, and likewise, I SHOULD be aware of this so that I would increase my minimum engagement distance.

Again, the increase is dependent on many factors, but this is to outline the safety concerns.

That was my brain barf.\

Last edited by ILLusion; September 15th, 2011 at 18:16..
ILLusion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 15th, 2011, 18:17   #29
Polish_Legion
 
Polish_Legion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Oakville, Ontario
Quote:
Originally Posted by m102404 View Post
I'd concur with those points.

Essentially you're comparing the difference in pressure curves (spring vs. gas) as they affect the hopup applied.

and...gas guns are more fun
Ditto, gas guns are more fun but they cost more $$$ to maintain :P
__________________


God gave you a soul. Your parents, a body. Your country, a rifle. Keep all of them clean.
Polish_Legion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 15th, 2011, 21:37   #30
Stocko
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Toronto, Ontario
What Illusion just typed out is complete news to me... I've never thought of it like that.. Holy crap.
Stocko is offline   Reply With Quote
ReplyTop


Go Back   Airsoft Canada > Information Center > Newbie Tank

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Airsoft Canada
MILSIG

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 18:36.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.