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Old November 3rd, 2010, 04:01   #46
surebet
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Originally Posted by Cortexburn View Post
20 and 30 Thousand.....damn......I bow to you for that...LOL. WOW.
It's less impressive that it sounds, I rarely keep more than 5k of stock on hand. It just changes often.

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Originally Posted by Cortexburn View Post
I guess my thing is as a player if you buy a gun that is too hot to play with then it's YOUR responsibility to down grade it ( either yourself or a gun doctor....). There is no passing on of that responsibility.
Well, although ignoring a fact does not make it invalid, people will expect turn key solutions. A responsible retailer still has to take into account customer stupidity, be it from ignorance or malice.

[quote=Cortexburn;1342891] As it turns out my clubs field seems to have the highest documented allowed fps for play in Canada at 435, many other fields have 400 and some 350....what does that have to do with what ANY retailer selling guns? Nothing. By that logic fast cars or bikes that can go over the speed limit should not be sold as their top speed is prohibited on roads.... I might add that we DO chrono, and if a player swaps springs or does some other action like this then they get booted. It's MY responsibility as a host to ensure our rules are followed, as it's the players responsibility to follow the rules. I don't think it's the retailers responsibility to ensure their product follows my clubs rules.

Still, this does not help with rag tag groups. ASC and the local forums are no longer the single points of contact for players. People googling ''airsoft+canada'' get the CAS retail point as the first result.

People will play, regardless of how and with whom.

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Marketing to minors....not really an issue. The AV system is flawed. Members seem to think that because ASC has the AV system then every player/retailer in Canada should abide by this system.

I'd like to make it clear that the AV system was placed into ASC policy for the SOLE purpose of stopping the sale of guns to minors on ASC. Period. At it's conception it made sense, but times and circumstances have changed and this policy will also.

Pointing fingers at ANY retailer for selling to minors outside of the ASC forums is pointless.

Minors play, here in Alberta there are forums and teams/clubs of minors that play. They have purchased their airsoft from buyairsoft AND other retailers....that also retail here on ASC. Is this a horrible thing? No. It's not illegal, it's not "wrong". It's business.

The AV system to MANY MANY members has achieved this holy status, it would be in the airsoft bible. It's a FORUM POLICY.

Retailers who chose to use it in their daily business...good for them. But there is no and has never been any requirement for this when doing off ASC sales.

Due to Walmart, CT, Cabella's, Wholesale sports, bass pro and every other sports store, hobby store, hardware store that sells "softair" AND airsoft minors have airsoft. It's done. The minors that buy from the retailers that we buy from are a drop in the bucket. Time to work on the situation as it is today and not as it was years back.
Although Pandora's box has been opened for a while, it doesn't mean that a laissez-allez approach is warranted.

The AV system is not perfect, hell, even well known scammers have had had access, but I still think that it's worth defending. If there is an ASC policy change in the future, so be it.

Still, I think that marketing to the 14+ crowd is a bad move.
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Old November 3rd, 2010, 04:32   #47
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I agree people expect turn key solutions, and it seems the community seems to be happy, or should I say apathetic, to the change in direction from personal responsibility within airsoft to that of quick, simple gratification. We are not putting the ownus on the airsoft user to know what it shoots and what the rules of the field are.

The turn of the community mindset from that of seeking your own answers and being a responsible individual to pushing that responsibility on to the retailer because the user is just going to be too lazy and irresponsible to learn field limits and deal with it on their own is what is going to cause us grief.

THAT is the laissez-aller approach, if the community allows this lazy attitude toward the player off the field we should not be surprised when we find these players on the field ignoring rules, " I didn't know ", " you didn't say ".....

I see minors in airsoft not much different then young hunters. Minors with real firearms hunting are not allowed off on their own. They are guided on the rights and wrongs before they get in the field, there are expectations that are known before they even hold the firearm.

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Lol I might as well just disregard all rules on this site from now on, imagine an ASC mod arguing for the proliferation of airsoft to minors, lock up your noobs the noob tank is about to get alot warmer hehheheh
It's not about arguing FOR the proliferation of airsoft to minors...that's already done. It's about the mentality that surrounds our policy and minor players. New members/players NEED to be held more accountable for learning airsoftese, what they buy and how they use it on the field.
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Last edited by Cortexburn; November 3rd, 2010 at 04:38..
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Old November 3rd, 2010, 20:06   #48
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If I may reply to this also I'd just like to add something.

Airsoft may be a sport that is directed at an adult audience, but just because of what it is, minors will want to join in on it. Saying minors shouldn't be in airsoft is like saying minors shouldn't use bb guns.

Without some teaching it is dangerous, but with some openess, teaching and encouragement from the community, the transition could be made to have a more lively young community. Look at the UK, while not a lot of minors playing, there still is the few who have been accepted.

Heck, I was a minor myself who was interested in airsoft. I found out about airsoft when I was 12, and knew I couldn't go to the venue where you could play till I was 16.

What is airsoft if it isn't about responsiblity? That is what one of the core aspects of airsoft, responsiblity and accountibility. How else would the Honour System work if you didn't give people a little leeway to make their own responsible decision to call Hit.

With these new G&G guns, you are giving them that. If people want to play at your site, they play by YOUR rules, your speeds. If not, well they better figure out a way to get their gun so that it can play there. And I think G&G did a very smart thing by giving the lower M100 spring as well as the M140 spring.

Or heck, even go out and get a spring that is between the two if you want something that is more powerful than the M100, but less than the M140 so you can actually play with it.

With the price tag attached to these guns, someone buying it will definitely be considering the sport first. Because, really, what is the first thing that all new players ask? - "oh, what is the best cheep gun i can get?"

Something that you guys might also want to be mindful of is the stereotyping of new players. Heck, if you read just this thread, you'd think that the established airsoft community didn't want anymore players.

Would you have wanted to get into airsoft if all you could find on it (for the most part) was "older" (sometimes just 18yr olds) players immediately bashing any new person who asked an honest question? Who was trying to pick the brains of the smarter people if you will.

Just looking at these guns, I am very excited for them. While they are obviously very hot, having them in the overt Canadian market just means something pretty close to monumental. Here is a sport that is a simulation of war, using guns, in Canadian, the freakout gun control country.

Just the two cents from a former minor airsofter who started his own little responsible airsofting group.
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Old November 11th, 2010, 22:52   #49
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Originally Posted by SlippGun View Post
If I may reply to this also I'd just like to add something.

Airsoft may be a sport that is directed at an adult audience, but just because of what it is, minors will want to join in on it. Saying minors shouldn't be in airsoft is like saying minors shouldn't use bb guns.

Without some teaching it is dangerous, but with some openess, teaching and encouragement from the community, the transition could be made to have a more lively young community. Look at the UK, while not a lot of minors playing, there still is the few who have been accepted.

Heck, I was a minor myself who was interested in airsoft. I found out about airsoft when I was 12, and knew I couldn't go to the venue where you could play till I was 16.



What is airsoft if it isn't about responsiblity? That is what one of the core aspects of airsoft, responsiblity and accountibility. How else would the Honour System work if you didn't give people a little leeway to make their own responsible decision to call Hit.

With these new G&G guns, you are giving them that. If people want to play at your site, they play by YOUR rules, your speeds. If not, well they better figure out a way to get their gun so that it can play there. And I think G&G did a very smart thing by giving the lower M100 spring as well as the M140 spring.

Or heck, even go out and get a spring that is between the two if you want something that is more powerful than the M100, but less than the M140 so you can actually play with it.

With the price tag attached to these guns, someone buying it will definitely be considering the sport first. Because, really, what is the first thing that all new players ask? - "oh, what is the best cheep gun i can get?"

Something that you guys might also want to be mindful of is the stereotyping of new players. Heck, if you read just this thread, you'd think that the established airsoft community didn't want anymore players.

Would you have wanted to get into airsoft if all you could find on it (for the most part) was "older" (sometimes just 18yr olds) players immediately bashing any new person who asked an honest question? Who was trying to pick the brains of the smarter people if you will.

Just looking at these guns, I am very excited for them. While they are obviously very hot, having them in the overt Canadian market just means something pretty close to monumental. Here is a sport that is a simulation of war, using guns, in Canadian, the freakout gun control country.

Just the two cents from a former minor airsofter who started his own little responsible airsofting group.
THANKYOU, agreed completly
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Old November 14th, 2010, 02:07   #50
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there is one thing that the haters of buyairsoft and the "legal" age haters is that the perception of airsoft in this country has got to change.

this sports life and death is going to be decided by scam journalists out to make money, politicians (out to seem tough on crime for votes) and the 99% of people in this country who just listen blindly to the government/news.

there is only one way to beat these people, and that is by getting this sport out there as what it is: good clean fun that is perfectly safe if one follows a few simple rules. you will never convince anyone in the long run that full legalization is a good idea by permenantly excluding any demographic on the grounds of "THESE PEOPLE WITH AIRSOFT ARE SO DANGEROUS AND STUPID THAT THEY SHOULD BE LEGISLATED OUT". for chrissakes, near as i can tell you guys have won out against near impossible odds by finally getting these things legal, so why are you now blindly telling people how dangerous it is?

is it so they can ban it again, or so you can go back to breaking the law for replacement parts and new toys?

parents can buy guns and pellet guns for their children for one reason: if you follow a few simple rules, both of the afore mentioned are quite safe for use by anybody. if airsoft can't be safe for everybody (especially responsible parents who vote and buy newspapers but not airsoft) then you guys are just going to have to keep shelling out big bucks for guns, and skulking around like criminals off the field.

the days of the government sending retailers to prison for their business practices seems to be over (knock on wood), quit acting like like the criminals you're not. if you got a problem playing with kids, then don't. if you got a problem with kids owning airsoft(video games, internet, rock music, skimpy cloths, etc) then dont buy it for your own. i say lets get mainstream respect the only way we can, by opening this sport to everyone, for the benifet of everyone.

the buyairsoft debate is a symptom of a much larger problem this sport faces. always remember, if buyairsoft wrecks the sport due to it's own policies, then they stand to lose a lot just like all of us. they may be in it for the money, but they will fight alongside all of you to keep that money coming in.
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Old November 14th, 2010, 02:14   #51
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I'd like to keep 14 year olds off my playing feild. Thanks.
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Old November 14th, 2010, 03:12   #52
Cortexburn
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yeah, so......points made.

Lets lay off Buyairsoft, if you have a legitimate gripe then write a review, otherwise lets lay off.
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