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Old June 10th, 2010, 17:20   #1
choldaway
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Newbie looking for info (from experts, not noobs that haven't done their research)

I'm new to ASC, but I've read a lot of things in the forum and figured that most of the people on here would be able to help me with a few questions, so here goes:

1. Before buying anything, I know I ought to go to a game, unfortunately the events page is stupid and requires me to be AV'd before I can view, which is ironically the best place for me to get AV'd. Can anyone give me some advice as to where this might be played near me (I live in Southwestern Ontario, between Windsor and London, and would prefer not driving to Toronto, plus I've seen retailers in London but haven't heard of any events)

2. If possible, I would like to bring friends into the game, so I would like to at least know the cheapest competitive options for doing that, although myself I would rather spend a bit more money on a gun and upgrade its performance, because I'm fairly certain I'd be interested in the sport long-term and obviously you want the best gear for that.

3. I'm interested in function only, I really don't care about realism, I'm more of the person that would like an AR capable of being upgraded to a sniper at some point, but don't care what it looks like. Since I eventually plan to upgrade it, I'd rather not spend over 350 for just the gun, unless it was quite awesome or had only a few replaceable parts (ie I don't want a gun that is mid-range everywhere, I'd rather have to replace the motor and gearbox only than eventually upgrade those, and the hop-up, and get a tightbore barrel, and get a spring upgrade, and the list goes on.

As a side note, being interested in function generally means a TM clone would be best, simply for ease of upgrading with new parts both now and in the future. Can anyone make recommendations for me?
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Old June 10th, 2010, 17:32   #2
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http://www.airsoftcanada.com/showthread.php?t=74996 that is the age verifiers list of locations. Pick the one closest to you and send them a PM. that'll get you going on the AV thing, Welcome to ASC. Clone wise, there are so many out there. You really need to ask yourself what you want in an AEG and then sort it out from there.
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Old June 10th, 2010, 18:12   #3
Drake
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Quote:
Originally Posted by choldaway View Post
1. Before buying anything, I know I ought to go to a game, unfortunately the events page is stupid and requires me to be AV'd before I can view, which is ironically the best place for me to get AV'd. Can anyone give me some advice as to where this might be played near me (I live in Southwestern Ontario, between Windsor and London, and would prefer not driving to Toronto, plus I've seen retailers in London but haven't heard of any events)
Only one of the game sections is AV-restricted, the others are not; you should be able to view and post in the Ontario section:

http://www.airsoftcanada.com/forumdisplay.php?f=68


And as DanoftheDead pointed out, check the list of verifiers.



Quote:
2. If possible, I would like to bring friends into the game, so I would like to at least know the cheapest competitive options for doing that, although myself I would rather spend a bit more money on a gun and upgrade its performance, because I'm fairly certain I'd be interested in the sport long-term and obviously you want the best gear for that.
If you've been reading then you're most likely aware that the costs extend beyond just the gun; extra magazines, battery, charger, a good pair of goggles or paintball mask (make sure whatever you buy meets the requirements of the field you'll be attending), BDUs, a decent pair of boots, etc.

It may seem like a daunting amount of stuff to buy just to get started, but its best you face it realistically on the onset than become overwhelmed after you decide to dive in.

Point in case, even going with the cheapest stuff expect to spend over $100 on top of the gun.



Quote:
3. I'm interested in function only, I really don't care about realism, I'm more of the person that would like an AR capable of being upgraded to a sniper at some point, but don't care what it looks like. Since I eventually plan to upgrade it, I'd rather not spend over 350 for just the gun, unless it was quite awesome or had only a few replaceable parts (ie I don't want a gun that is mid-range everywhere, I'd rather have to replace the motor and gearbox only than eventually upgrade those, and the hop-up, and get a tightbore barrel, and get a spring upgrade, and the list goes on.
Peacemealing it is usually the expensive route. $350 is really low to start, too.

Then replacing the motor? That's at least $50 right there. A good gear set will run you close to $100. Plus the other upgrades you'd usually want (tightbore etc).

You're better off spending more to start and get something that has as many "keeper" parts as possible.


Quote:
As a side note, being interested in function generally means a TM clone would be best, simply for ease of upgrading with new parts both now and in the future. Can anyone make recommendations for me?
"TM clone" is pretty vague at this point, unless you're looking for something that's 100% TM compatible, as most brands are derived from the TM designs. Consider each brand/model for its own merits, not how much of a clone it is (and the straight clones at this point are also usually lower quality overall, so its just not something I'd recommend).
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Old June 10th, 2010, 18:17   #4
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If your not concerned with "looks" and just functionality then Check out www.torontoairsoft.com he's got a wide array of very well priced Clear lower guns that are within your price range.


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Old June 10th, 2010, 19:44   #5
The Chad
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+1,000 for Frank at Velocity Arms, I bought my first Canadian AEG from him and some accessories later on, nothing but niceness

If there were "I support VA" patches, I would totally wear one.
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If you were trying to insert a magazine into another magazine then I guess that would be indeed ghey. Inserting a magazine in a magwell seems rather hetero to me. The tape is merely metro, calling it ghey is rather absurd and makes it hard for the metro magazines to socialize with other magazines.
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Old June 10th, 2010, 20:33   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
If you've been reading then you're most likely aware that the costs extend beyond just the gun; extra magazines, battery, charger, a good pair of goggles or paintball mask (make sure whatever you buy meets the requirements of the field you'll be attending), BDUs, a decent pair of boots, etc.

It may seem like a daunting amount of stuff to buy just to get started, but its best you face it realistically on the onset than become overwhelmed after you decide to dive in.

Point in case, even going with the cheapest stuff expect to spend over $100 on top of the gun.
Lol, a good charger will be almost that much by itself.
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Old June 10th, 2010, 20:58   #7
Drake
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Point in case, even going with the cheapest stuff expect to spend over $100 on top of the gun.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Styrak View Post
Lol, a good charger will be almost that much by itself.
incomplete quote is incomplete
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Old June 10th, 2010, 21:28   #8
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Well yeah. But you don't want to cheap out on a charger.
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Old June 11th, 2010, 01:03   #9
Percuvius
 
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It's cheaper to buy a good gun to start than to upgrade a cheap POS. Do you know how to upgrade it yourself? If not you have to pay someone on top of the new parts cost and your whole gun will only be as good as its weakest part.
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Old June 11th, 2010, 01:42   #10
The Chad
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I'm quite happy with my clone, it's my primary, no upgrades. It's up to you. Some people like their POS car as long as it takes them places. Some people spend thousands at Crappy Tire to make it "look nice." Finally, some people rather performance and name brand parts, most of which, are folks right here on this site.
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Originally Posted by BennyBoy View Post
If you were trying to insert a magazine into another magazine then I guess that would be indeed ghey. Inserting a magazine in a magwell seems rather hetero to me. The tape is merely metro, calling it ghey is rather absurd and makes it hard for the metro magazines to socialize with other magazines.
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Old June 11th, 2010, 11:55   #11
choldaway
 
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Alright, so maybe I should clarify a couple of things

First, thanks for the events list/list of AV's, that will be helpful.

Second, in case it starts sounding like I'm asking to/where to buy a gun I'm not, so read it and don't just ban me, I know I need to be age verified to ask all of that (although it's not exactly hard to look online myself lol)

Third, here's what I know or have read:

In general, some brand names just suck, and the rest kinda go up and down depending on the model and the version, for example, I've read reports that go both ways even on Tokyo Marui, and that lately CYMA and G&G have been stepping it up with their products even though they sucked at first, while other brands have been doing not as good of a job. I also know that you never touch anything from Crossman (not hard to figure out...I remember looking at one of those when I first started looking and almost choking when I read 'gravity fed hopper') or generally fully clear guns (although Aftermath seems to have decent guns for an extreme beginner, just with a 50% survival rate).

So, what I'm looking at now are the G&G ones offered by a few places, but I don't want the Combat Machine versions as I have heard they are the lowest quality grade offered by the company. I've also looked at a number of CYMA guns, because originally I wanted one of those that's only available in the US and then stumbled across Velocity Arms, which to the best of my knowledge sells rebranded (and potentially upgraded?) CYMA guns and accessories to fit. Both of these are what I would consider TM clones, as they are 100% compatible and didn't come up with the design first...is there a better name for them? And are they actually 100% compatible?

I don't particularly want to invest in a TM or CA to start, simply because the costs are enormous, and long term I'm probably not going to keep many of the internals, as airsoft in North America has been improving quite a bit every couple of years. I'm essentially the guy who would like a sleeper car, if you know what I mean. And no, at the moment I don't know how to rip apart and upgrade an airsoft gun, but that's only because I haven't tinkered with one yet, and if I got really stuck I could always ask my dad for help (I'm 21, not 14 remember-it's just that he's a mechanic)

I also know what I want in a gun, long term, so here's what I need at the start: Large type battery (at least compatible), 100% TM compatible (that's to change gearbox, springs and guide, motor, barrel, etc. as I go, not right away) potential for add-ons like scopes, and definitely a long type barrel (like an M14 or 16-preferably not as heavy as the M14) so that I can get the best accuracy when I need to. Useable but not necessarily great out of the box. I do not care about the externals, as I have both spray paint (lol) and will probably camo my gun with whatever I can find to do that (assuming it's not illegal to do so in a match?...I've been surprised to not see that too often on the internet)

So all of that amounts to "I'm looking for a decent gun, one that I can use right out of the package or needs very minor upgrades to start, but that I can tinker with and use for a long time to come if I so choose"-preferably under 350, maybe 400?

I'd also appreciate a velocity arms review and suggestions, simply because I haven't found one that goes into depth yet.
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Old June 11th, 2010, 13:03   #12
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Manufacturer is generally more important then the style. Generally all airsoft aeg's work the same so how it looks like outside is up to you. Though the advice in the Airsoft Newbie Buying Guide about styles is good. Generally ak47, m16/m4 or mp5 are good starter gun styles due to the availability of accessories and upgrades.

I'll add my weight to the argument of cheap vs quality. Get the highest quality gun you can afford, you'll thank yourself in the long run. Upgrading a low grade gun to match a high grade gun almost always costs considerably more then simply buying the high grade gun in the first place. Not to mention having your gun break down on you in mid game due to cheap parts sucks rocks.

Another thing to consider is resale value. You don't want to spend too much cause you're not sure you'll stick with it? That's actually a good reason *to* get a high grade gun rather then not to. You spend $600 on a Classic Army gun and, provided you've taken decent care of it, you have a very good chance of recouping most if not all of that $600 back. On the other hand, the classifieds are continuously flooded with people trying to offload Aftermath guns with no luck.

For $200, the best you could manage is Aftermath (CYMA rebrand) stuff. Both the Broxa (full stock MP5) and the Kraken (AK47) are decent bargain basement guns, about $160 or so each. Stay away from Aftermath's Kirenex or Knight (both M4 variants) and the Lycaon (collapsible stock MP5) though, not a good rep.

If you're willing to go up to $300 you could get a JG. Yeah JG's are China clones but they're getting quite respectable nowadays. JG's M4 runs about $290. You could get one of the G&G cansoft (clear receiver) M4's for about $340. G&G is the cheapest of the midgrade guns. $400-$450 would get you an ICS which is a higher end midgrade gun. $500-$600 would get you a G&P, there's some debate on whether this is the lowest of the higrade guns or if it should rank higher. Either way they make nice guns.

If you can afford it, highgrade guns such as Tokyo Marui or Classic Army are the way to go. They're going to run you $600-$700. Though if the M4/M16 style is what you want then I'd recommend staying away from stock TM's, the barrel wobble and creaking are pretty bad on the stock TM M4/M16's (yes the new TM M4/M16's have fixed this problem, but the bulk of the ones in country are the old ones so best to just avoid them for now).

I did extensive research and settled on the Tactical Carbine version of the Classic Army M15A4 (basically a full stock m4) as my first gun. If an Armalite is what you're looking for then I think it's the best of all possible versions. You have the shortened M4 carbine barrel, which makes you less likely to smack your barrel off something when turning quickly, combined with the full stock which houses a large battery. Small batteries don't have near the run time of a large battery, not to mention that the reinforced slip ring (the ring that keeps the fore-grip on) is really stong. While this is mostly a good thing and a big step up over CA's previous M15 versions, it makes changing small batteries in the field very difficult if not impossible.

CA's M15A4 series in general is a big step up over their previous versions and as far as stock armalites go they're probably the best. All metal where the real steel version is, the plastic parts where the real steal version is plastic are made of high quality enhanced nylon fiber rather then abs for great texture and feel. Classic Army has a deal with Armalite so you get all the proper markings. Plus that deal also goes to show the quality of the manufacture, Armalite wouldn't put their name on a shoddy product.

Internally the gearbox is reinforced metal and all the gears are metal as well. It fires hotter stock then Tokyo Marui's as well, firing at 300-320 fps where your average TM only fires 280-300 fps.

All in all this is a great starter gun if you can afford it. Because it's all metal you don't have to worry nearly as much about breaking it and you won't get any of the wobble or creaking that is infamous in stock TM M4/M16's. Unfortunately affording it is the biggest problem, they're not cheap. For reference I got my CA M15A4 from the classifieds, upgraded with a bunch of Systema internals to fire 390fps, for $600 shipped which was a great price.

As you can probably tell, I'm a big fan of Classic Army. One thing to keep in mind about Classic Army is they now have two lines, a proline and a sportline. Originally they were easy to tell apart because the proline had the metal body and the sportline had a plastic body but recently CA has been releasing their sportlines with metal bodies. The price tag should still allow you to easily tell the difference, the sportline being $300-400ish and the proline never being cheaper then $500, usually more like $600 or more but it's still something to keep in mind. All the pros that I went over above were regarding the proline model. The sportline model has cheaper everything internally and externally.

There's alot of people that will expound the virtues of G&P as well. And I'll admit the externals of G&P are very nice, easily on par with CA, in some cases better. The reason why I don't say G&P over CA though is much the same reason why people weren't big fans of CA up until a few years ago: their quality control for the internals is not the greatest. That means a fair number of lemons. CA got a handle on this a few years ago and they've been making great strides in terms of their rep ever since, but G&P isn't quite there yet. This is simply my personal opinion and there are many people that would likely disagree with me, but it's something to keep in mind. ICS is about a cheap a gun as you can go and still get full metal out of the box, I haven't read alot about this manufacturer but needless to say it's not in the same league as CA or G&P. It's what someone on a budget but determined to get full metal would aim for. I should probably give TM some love here as well: Due to Japanese laws TM guns fire alittle cooler then most others and their externals are going to be almost entirely abs plastic. But *nothing* beats TM for internal reliability. You leave a TM stock internally and it will last for literally decades.

One of the perks of going with an M16/M4 variant is that mags are dead easy to come by and dirt cheap. You can get Star brand mags for like $5 a mag or less, plastic yeah but sturdy none the less (Star is also the only brand that makes realcaps too). Metal mags will run you a fair bit more, $15 to $30 a mag. There's no real reason to go with metal over plastic for mags except looks/realism. Though of course if you're going to go hicap then you might as well get metal ones. As to Brands, TM and CA make good mags. I've heard pretty good stuff about MAG brand mags as well. King Arms not so much, especially for M4/M16 mags. Star is always a good affordable fallback too.

Some people say you need to shell out for batteries, mags, camo, chargers and ammo in the begining. Most of that isn't necessary right off the hop. The stock battery will do you for awhile. Most of the guns come with a hicap (high capacity (300-600 rounds)) mag that will also do for awhile. I do agree that a good charger would be a sound initial investment, but not a total requirement, especially if you plan to get a good battery down the road and don't care if the cheap wall charger fries your stock battery. Camo isn't really required in the beginning either, just some dark clothes. Ammo, yeah obviously a requirement but even good ammo (BB Bastard) only costs $10 for two thousand rounds.

So truely, all you really need to start is the gun, a bag or two of ammo and good eye protection (which will run you between $30 and $50). That said, if you can afford it then it all helps. Camo would cost about $100, a chest rig or vest would cost another $100. A good loadout of mags, even the cheap Star mags, are going to cost at least $50. A good charger is at least another $50, with another $50 for a good battery. A sidearm is another thing that people like to have but isn't really necessary. A decent sidearm would cost you between $250 and $350. Probably another $100 for a duty belt, a holster, a sling, gloves and a misc pouch or two.

Sidearms aren't really required right away so if you're on a limited budget then hold off on the sidearm for now. If you have the budget for it then what you want in a sidearm depends on two factors (besides cost of course) whether or not full metal is a must and exactly what model you're partial to. Certain manufacturers tend to make certain models better then others. If full metal is a must then the best choice that isn't going to cost you an arm and a leg is probably KJW, especially for the M9 which they do very well. You'll see alot of WE's around, they're cheap and full metal but tend to have problems, especially their 1911 models. KJW has a rep of having mag problems, but I have had two KJW pistols and I haven't had any trouble with my mags. If full metal isn't a must then WA or TM would be very good choices.

As you can see from the above (very rough) prices, airsoft is not a cheap sport. It's generally accepted that the absolute minimum you need to get into it is $500, and it's usually more like $1000-$1500 if you go with quality gear. I've seen a few people do it for less then $500, but it takes a fair bit of time, effort and jury-rigging. And of course quality tends to be a problem at that level.

Now for some gun pron:

My Classic Army M15A4 Tactical Carbine without external addons:


My baby, CA M15A4 Tactical Carbine with m203 grenade launcher, red dot sight and taclight:
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Last edited by Kuro_Neko; June 11th, 2010 at 13:09..
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