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Old April 29th, 2010, 16:23   #46
Lestat
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This is all very confusing; and my mom says I am a pretty bright guy...

So if I get this right -- importers bring them in while they are above the normal FPS thresholds we game at, to take them out of replica classfication (prohibited) and into unrestricted firearm classification (okey dokey).

Then the retailer in-Canada reduces the FPS to the <400 fps mark before selling, so someone doesn't get zapped on the game field...

Question: Once the retailer drops the FPS to <400 levels, doesn't it become a replica again -- and we are at risk of seizure for possessing; or is it just the importing of replica's thats prohibited?

(rubs head -- ouch)
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Old April 29th, 2010, 16:29   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lestat_d View Post
Question: Once the retailer drops the FPS to <400 levels, doesn't it become a replica again -- and we are at risk of seizure for possessing; or is it just the importing of replica's thats prohibited?
You have a car.

It is fully working and therefore classified as a car.

You take the wheels off, but the change is not permanent, so it's still classified as a car. You can always put the wheels back on.

You run your car over with a steamroller; it can no longer ever work as a car again, so it's no longer classified as a car.

Does that help? I'm not having a good analogy day.
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Old April 29th, 2010, 16:32   #48
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Originally Posted by red_baroness View Post
You should try looking at the AIR GUN FACT SHEET on the RCMP WEBSITE
I also put that up.. but again... from the RCMP fact sheet... as Airsoft guns arnt airguns by legal definition but replicas.

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/f...plique-eng.htm

and Willy Wong had an import license (which the govenrment doesnt give out anymore) which doesnt make it legal for anyone to have, just for the use and only use of theater/movie, and you have to have a license for that as well. it's legal to have pot if you have a docters perscription too, doesnt mean that anyone can have it.

On another post,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lestat_d View Post
This is all very confusing; and my mom says I am a pretty bright guy...

So if I get this right -- importers bring them in while they are above the normal FPS thresholds we game at, to take them out of replica classfication (prohibited) and into unrestricted firearm classification (okey dokey).

Then the retailer in-Canada reduces the FPS to the <400 fps mark before selling, so someone doesn't get zapped on the game field...

Question: Once the retailer drops the FPS to <400 levels, doesn't it become a replica again -- and we are at risk of seizure for possessing; or is it just the importing of replica's thats prohibited?

(rubs head -- ouch)
Read this thread.. http://www.airsoftcanada.com/showthr...t=legal+import it's why Mach1 and such are importing full metal guns now.. but don't try it at home. I probably shouldn't have brought that up but basically they are changing shooting charicteristics to classify the guns as unregistered, unlicensed guns.. this involves increasing muzzle velocity... but to legally sell them they have to keep the muzzle velocities high meaning the end user recieves a rifle that shoots way to hot for most field regulations. If an end user wants to degrade the firearm to a lower muzzle velocity he can but that makes a replica firearm again which is illegal. Basically, any gun that is allowed on most fields is illegal in canada.

So...
Quote:
Then the retailer in-Canada reduces the FPS to the <400 fps mark before selling, so someone doesn't get zapped on the game field...
isn't correct as once the retailer reduces them to sub 400fps its a replica firearm again and is illegal to sell. As such the retailers arn't reducing them so that they can legally sell them

Sorry for the confusion (and it is confusing) but the above thread will give a good in site to the canadian laws as well. Oh wait, I believe it's The Saint that's done this amazing work as well, so LISTEN TO THE GUY, red_baroness!!!!
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Old April 29th, 2010, 16:46   #49
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Regardless of what a governement agency says. An Airsoft Device IS NOT A REPLICA.

By definition in the Criminal Code of Canada:


Replica Firearm
“replica firearm” means any device that is designed or intended to exactly resemble, or to resemble with near precision, a firearm, and that itself is not a firearm, but does not include any such device that is designed or intended to exactly resemble, or to resemble with near precision, an antique firearm;

Imitation Firearm
“imitation firearm” means any thing that imitates a firearm, and includes a replica firearm;

Certain weapons deemed not to be firearms
(3) For the purposes of sections 91 to 95, 99 to 101, 103 to 107 and 117.03 of this Act and the provisions of the Firearms Act, the following weapons are deemed not to be firearms:
(a) any antique firearm;
(b) any device that is
(i) designed exclusively for signalling, for notifying of distress, for firing blank cartridges or for firing stud cartridges, explosive-driven rivets or other industrial projectiles, and
(ii) intended by the person in possession of it to be used exclusively for the purpose for which it is designed;
(c) any shooting device that is
(i) designed exclusively for the slaughtering of domestic animals, the tranquillizing of animals or the discharging of projectiles with lines attached to them, and
(ii) intended by the person in possession of it to be used exclusively for the purpose for which it is designed; and
(d) any other barrelled weapon, where it is proved that the weapon is not designed or adapted to discharge
(i) a shot, bullet or other projectile at a muzzle velocity exceeding 152.4 m per second or at a muzzle energy exceeding 5.7 Joules, or

(ii) a shot, bullet or other projectile that is designed or adapted to attain a velocity exceeding 152.4 m per second or an energy exceeding 5.7 Joules

This Section 3d would cover Airsoft Devices

We need to stop referring to our Airsoft Devices as replicas, as they are not replicas. At best they would be Imitation Firearms. A replica is unable to emit a projectile at all.

At best it is an Imitation Firearm.

At worst is it an unregulated, unrestricted, unregistered firearm.
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Last edited by Mr.Shiney; April 29th, 2010 at 16:55..
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Old April 29th, 2010, 16:55   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Shiney View Post
Regardless of what a governement agency says. An Airsoft Device IS NOT A REPLICA.

By definition in the Criminal Code of Canada:


Replica Firearm
“replica firearm” means any device that is designed or intended to exactly resemble, or to resemble with near precision, a firearm, and that itself is not a firearm, but does not include any such device that is designed or intended to exactly resemble, or to resemble with near precision, an antique firearm;

Imitation Firearm
“imitation firearm” means any thing that imitates a firearm, and includes a replica firearm;

Certain weapons deemed not to be firearms
(3) For the purposes of sections 91 to 95, 99 to 101, 103 to 107 and 117.03 of this Act and the provisions of the Firearms Act, the following weapons are deemed not to be firearms:
(a) any antique firearm;
(b) any device that is
(i) designed exclusively for signalling, for notifying of distress, for firing blank cartridges or for firing stud cartridges, explosive-driven rivets or other industrial projectiles, and
(ii) intended by the person in possession of it to be used exclusively for the purpose for which it is designed;
(c) any shooting device that is
(i) designed exclusively for the slaughtering of domestic animals, the tranquillizing of animals or the discharging of projectiles with lines attached to them, and
(ii) intended by the person in possession of it to be used exclusively for the purpose for which it is designed; and
(d) any other barrelled weapon, where it is proved that the weapon is not designed or adapted to discharge
(i) a shot, bullet or other projectile at a muzzle velocity exceeding 152.4 m per second or at a muzzle energy exceeding 5.7 Joules, or

(ii) a shot, bullet or other projectile that is designed or adapted to attain a velocity exceeding 152.4 m per second or an energy exceeding 5.7 Joules

This Section 3d would cover Airsoft Devices

We need to stop referring to our Airsoft Devices as replicas, as they are not replicas. At best they would be Imitation Firearms. A replica is unable to emit a projectile at all.
Think you missed the first paragraph and therefor are contradicting yourself

Quote:
Replica Firearm
“replica firearm” means any device that is designed or intended to exactly resemble, or to resemble with near precision, a firearm, and that itself is not a firearm, but does not include any such device that is designed or intended to exactly resemble, or to resemble with near precision, an antique firearm;
and yes this
Quote:
Certain weapons deemed not to be firearms
(3) For the purposes of sections 91 to 95, 99 to 101, 103 to 107 and 117.03 of this Act and the provisions of the Firearms Act, the following weapons are deemed not to be firearms:
(a) any antique firearm;
(b) any device that is
(i) designed exclusively for signalling, for notifying of distress, for firing blank cartridges or for firing stud cartridges, explosive-driven rivets or other industrial projectiles, and
(ii) intended by the person in possession of it to be used exclusively for the purpose for which it is designed;
(c) any shooting device that is
(i) designed exclusively for the slaughtering of domestic animals, the tranquillizing of animals or the discharging of projectiles with lines attached to them, and
(ii) intended by the person in possession of it to be used exclusively for the purpose for which it is designed; and
(d) any other barrelled weapon, where it is proved that the weapon is not designed or adapted to discharge
(i) a shot, bullet or other projectile at a muzzle velocity exceeding 152.4 m per second or at a muzzle energy exceeding 5.7 Joules, or
(ii) a shot, bullet or other projectile that is designed or adapted to attain a velocity exceeding 152.4 m per second or an energy exceeding 5.7 Joules
states that a airsoft gun is not a firearm... and by the first definition
Quote:
and that itself is not a firearm
Therefor, an airsoft guns matches the desciption of a replica firearm due to it not being a firearm...

A firearm can not be a replica, and a replica can not be a firearm, the are mutually exclusive.

How hard is this to understand?

And even if it was an unregulated, unrestricted, unregistered firearm (which it's not) why would police seize them and customs seize them at the border... you can legally import a unregulated, unrestricted, unregistered firearm

Lastly you saying
Quote:
We need to stop referring to our Airsoft Devices as replicas, as they are not replicas. At best they would be Imitation Firearms. A replica is unable to emit a projectile at all.
is both erreant in 2 regards.. if you look at the above definition of an imitation it says it includes replicas and a replica by your highlighted text
Quote:
(d) any other barrelled weapon, where it is proved that the weapon is not designed or adapted to discharge
(i) a shot, bullet or other projectile at a muzzle velocity exceeding 152.4 m per second or at a muzzle energy exceeding 5.7 Joules, or
(ii) a shot, bullet or other projectile that is designed or adapted to attain a velocity exceeding 152.4 m per second or an energy exceeding 5.7
Cant be adapted to shoot with muzzle velocity exceding 152.4mps (this is 500fps) or energy exceeding 5.7.
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Last edited by shaharov; April 29th, 2010 at 17:03..
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Old April 29th, 2010, 16:57   #51
Lestat
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I think I get your point -- its the status at time of import that defines & locks its classification into the unrestricted firearm level; any post-import 'customizations' made after the fact do not change that classification down to replica?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Saint View Post
You have a car.

It is fully working and therefore classified as a car.

You take the wheels off, but the change is not permanent, so it's still classified as a car. You can always put the wheels back on.

You run your car over with a steamroller; it can no longer ever work as a car again, so it's no longer classified as a car.

Does that help? I'm not having a good analogy day.
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Old April 29th, 2010, 17:01   #52
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Originally Posted by Lestat_d View Post
I think I get your point -- its the status at time of import that defines & locks its classification into the unrestricted firearm level; any post-import 'customizations' made after the fact do not change that classification down to replica?
Provided the post-import 'customizations' is non-permanent, yes.
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Old April 29th, 2010, 17:05   #53
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Originally Posted by Lestat_d View Post
I think I get your point -- its the status at time of import that defines & locks its classification into the unrestricted firearm level; any post-import 'customizations' made after the fact do not change that classification down to replica?
bingo!
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Old April 29th, 2010, 17:09   #54
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Originally Posted by The Saint View Post
Provided the post-import 'customizations' is non-permanent, yes.
Being devils advocate saint.. couldnt you then make the claim that all airsoft guns have a non-permanent muzzle velocity (as it's just the change of the spring) and that all airsoft guns can reach muzzle velocities exceeding 430fps making them a firearm by definition. ie.. you bought a car without wheels.. but you can always add them.. it's still a car isn't it? I dont think this is true.. but have no arguement for it yet.
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Old April 29th, 2010, 17:14   #55
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That argument would require a level of cooperation from the authority and census among the authority that isn't feasible at the moment.
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Old April 29th, 2010, 17:26   #56
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Originally Posted by The Saint View Post
That argument would require a level of cooperation from the authority and census among the authority that isn't feasible at the moment.
In otherwords.. everyone has to agree on it, and nobody is, doesnt matter if it's correct cuz in reality if RCMP or CBSA feels its not they will still sieze and you get to spend time and more money then the gun is worth fighting it. Right?
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Old April 29th, 2010, 17:34   #57
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I prefer the term "don't push our luck".

We are currently in a position that's better than we've ever been in since 1997. For the first time, the legal opaque airsoft businesses and the law are on the same side. Now's the time to transition into a sustainable legitimate industry, not to push for more concessions.
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Old April 29th, 2010, 17:52   #58
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Originally Posted by The Saint View Post
I prefer the term "don't push our luck".

We are currently in a position that's better than we've ever been in since 1997. For the first time, the legal opaque airsoft businesses and the law are on the same side. Now's the time to transition into a sustainable legitimate industry, not to push for more concessions.
Just hypothisizing (no clue how to spell that). BTW, thanks for the great work on this.
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Old April 29th, 2010, 19:09   #59
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Just don't look behind the curtain, right Saint?


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Saint View Post
Let's see now....
Interviews with Canadian Firearms Program, check.
Consultation with CBSA, check.
Lived, breathed and dreamed Criminal Code and Firearms Act for 2 years, check.
Graduate paper based on airsoft-relevant legal research, check.
Said paper submitted to government think tank, check.
Regular cooperation with both above agencies, check.
Legal paperwork for everything I do, check.

Now, let's examine your original statement in detail.



Let's break the above up a bit, dividing them where the trains of thought change lanes.



First of all, the law is two fold as far as airsofters are concerned. You must meet a minimum set of numbers and not exceed a maximum set of numbers. The people running Airsoft Canada seem to be exercising information control over the minimum number, so I'll leave it out. But only if you show the airsoft gun in question has met that legal number is it classified as uncontrolled firearm.

And that minimum number is very high and excludes all airsoft pistols. I can't make this clear enough, there is currently no legal opaque GBB possible.

The second component of the law is a muzzle energy and velocity limit, above which all firearms become controlled (and therefore illegal AND unsafe for airsoft use). This is where you left out muzzle energy. It's a combination of exceeding 500 feet per second and 5.7 Joules. You must meet one and exceed the other, minimum. For example, paintball regularly exceeds 5.7 Joules, but fall far short of 500 FPS.

Finally, neither starter pistols nor Nerf guns are "firearms" under Canadian law. The term "firearm" refers to a very specific set of conditions in Canada that no Nerf gun or starter pistol meets in their default state. Only if they have been specifically modified beyond their original state, then they may be a "firearm".



Here is where you're getting confused. The real factor in determining legality was in the previous paragraph, and it's an issue of classification. All else being equal, the problem with the legality of airsoft in Canada has always been an issue of what they are, not the legitimacy of the activity (barring criminal use).

Government crackdown on airsoft businesses have always been because they were illegally importing and selling prohibited devices. It did not matter what the intent of the seller and buyers were with regard to use (provided the activity itself wasn't illegal).

Now, airsoft the activity does apply as a defence against a number of use-related criminal offences, thanks to the precedence created by paintball.

However, airsoft guns are not recognized as "airsoft" guns in Canadian law. Operationally, they are merely part of the "Air, Spring or Gas" group. There is no statutory or regulatory differentiation between airsoft, pellet and paintball. Distinction is made at the implementation level based on the necessity of different ammunition types, but that's it.



And here is where you go really far off the track. I'm not even quite sure what you're getting at, unless you're somehow referring to s. 87 (Pointing a Firearm). But if that is the case, the fact that the setting is a theatrical production would provide a lawful excuse that is far more concrete than any airsoft or paintball intent.



It is not a trick, and thinking and wording it as such is probably not good. When anything is worded as a "replica", it is flagged by the system as such, and goes back into the same classification issue as before.



It seems to me you are woefully under informed about the legal history of airsoft in Canada.

http://www.canlii.org/en/bc/bcpc/doc...009bcpc50.html

You may wish to consult the above court decision, which pretty clearly illustrates why there is no "intent to airsoft" defence. That, or the half dozen or so CBSA/CITT failed appeals of "intent to airsoft".
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Old April 29th, 2010, 19:20   #60
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Just don't look behind the curtain, right Saint?
What?
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