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Old November 2nd, 2015, 11:50   #511
Zack The Ripper
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gish View Post
The newer FMA/Element Peq La5 upgraded versions have eye safe IR lasers in them.
I find this extremely hard to believe.
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Old November 2nd, 2015, 13:31   #512
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It's as easy as buying a laser power meter and checking them.
It's really not difficult to find and buy large quantities of 0.3 to 1mW laser modules.
At a retail price of like $45, I'd be highly suspect of their supply infrastructure; they might be getting their laser modules from a different source every week.
But class 1 IR modules aren't actually that expensive in bulk. Especially if your housing is made of plastic, has the cheapest windage adjustment ever, and isn't built to take the recoil of a .22.
I'd never trust a stock chinese "class 1" laser without testing them all individually, but in the rare case they are actually all coming in at 0.3-0.5mW, then that's both very good and very bad I guess?
Downside of course is everyone will want a $40 shitbox laser and will probably be flailing it around at night.
Upside I guess is nobody with gen1 NV will be able to use them, and some gen2 has trouble seeing class 1 IR as well? I guess that's good?
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Old November 2nd, 2015, 14:01   #513
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A bunch of $40 shit box lasers being flailed around works for me as long as they're eye safe. It's like Gen 1 users who just leave their illuminators on. "Hey everybody, I'm over here!"
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Old November 2nd, 2015, 14:49   #514
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The IR light on the night optics D300-HP is crazy goddamn bright, too
Like, you're all by yourself hunting in zero light, tracking a gopher 300m away kind of bright.
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Old November 2nd, 2015, 19:47   #515
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderCactus View Post
FDA "considered safe if handled carefully" in everyday life, and not at all safe when viewed through magnifying optics.
Hey Frank what's the extention number for your office at the FDA?
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Old November 2nd, 2015, 21:27   #516
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Originally Posted by Zack The Ripper View Post
I find this extremely hard to believe.
I have a tester. I've tested these two models
https://shop.jkarmy.com/element-dbal...ex-328-bk.html
https://shop.jkarmy.com/element-peq-...-5-uhp-de.html
Both are below or near 1mw
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Old November 2nd, 2015, 22:22   #517
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amoki View Post
Any eyesafe DBAL on the market? I know the g&p peq16 is about 10mW so that's a no go unless I want to be a dick who burns retinas.

I do have a m952v with a km3 but not sure whethet that's good enough to "guide" rounds in nv.

It's more than enough to walk/guide your BBs to target against people without NV. When pew pewing people with NV then any light source is a detriment.
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Old November 2nd, 2015, 22:40   #518
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deltastronk View Post
Hey Frank what's the extention number for your office at the FDA?
Says very specifically "not safe for viewing with optical instruments"
I'm not sure where you're getting wiggle room for interpreting that?
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Old November 3rd, 2015, 01:36   #519
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderCactus View Post
Says very specifically "not safe for viewing with optical instruments"
I'm not sure where you're getting wiggle room for interpreting that?
Says very specifically where? Because on the actual FDA's website under Class 3R lasers it says "Risk of injury increases when viewed with optical aids."

Key words to pick out from that are risk and increases - because context matters. How much magnification are we applying here? At what distance are you observing the dot? Are you still applying the blink reflex when dazzled or are we assuming the person will instead choose to continue staring into the beam like a deer in the headlights?

Under Class 1 in the same chart: "Considered non-hazardous. Hazard increases if viewed with optical aids, including magnifiers, binoculars, or telescopes." - With sufficient magnification, yes, any laser output can be immediately and significantly dangerous. It is no where explicitly stated they become instantly unsafe immediately at any level of magnification applied.

Under FDA Regulations the class is determined by the beam output when exposed at any possible point along the beam, from putting it up right against your eyeball to a mile away. Obviously it's rating is based off the closest possible point. They give the laser a rated assuming you will be an idiot and stick it right up against your eye - They assume that will be the first thing you do. With a 5mw red laser they say your blink reflex will kick in before any damage occurs even if it's an inch from your eye.

So when we go from there, okay, a 4x optic like an ACOG means you are 4x closer to the beam. So what would be a distance of 1 foot, you would get the same exposure at 4 feet through the optic. Getting hit with a laser at 10 feet is the same as getting hit with one at 40 feet while looking through your ACOG. But the exposure is still "safe" at 1 foot just as it is and 10 feet, so whats the problem? If it's safe to look into at even 1 inch, it's safe to look at from 30 feet away with a short dot.

Is there increased risk with exposure to laser radiation from an optical sight? Absolutely. No question about it. But there is also increased risk from fighting your blink reflex and staring into the beam directly for extended periods of time. Is that risk even worth having a discussion about? As I have stated before, the FDA has never had a report of a 5mw red laser causing eye injury before the blink reflex kicked in. We would be the first in recorded history even when you add in optical magnification. The only injuries they get reports of are from 3R lasers are the ones where people deliberately continued staring into the beam on purpose. The vast, overwhelming majority of their eye injuries they have on record are from improperly labeled China lasers, and people being idiots with overpowered lasers like the ones from Wicked Lasers.

To add further context: every year we have more tangible injuries to people from playing Airsoft - such as people losing teeth, dehydration, cuts, bruises, hypothermia, legs getting sliced open on razor sharp tables, and the ever endless ringing of tinnitus - than injuries the FDA has ever received in the history of their organization over red laser injuries (Which is zero). At this point we should shut Airsoft down right now, cause if a red laser that has been approved for use for putting up to your eye ball (assuming you have the ability to blink) is too dangerous, we are not responsible enough to sling BB's at each other or run around the forest. Period. It is frankly too dangerous.

If you came into this threads and started pulling down math - I could respect your arguments. We could have a discussion. If you started dropping info on the NOHD of lasers, and started pulling calculations of "If a 5mw red laser(635nm) with a beam divergence of .5 mrad has a power output of whatever w/cm^2 then we can assume that at an optical magnification of blah blah blah" I could respect your argument. We could talk and get somewhere. But what you are doing right now is being upset that the community is not cool with your basement mod lasers, so now nobody can have any lasers.

I mean here you are complaining about risk of eye injuries from something that has never caused any, while you are playing in closer quarters with shooting glasses on



I mean you'll complain about the risk of red lasers causing the first ever injury in recorded history but a BB slipping past your eye pro is no big deal and doesn't deserve a second thought?

The information is available on the internet. You can even contact the FDA if you want an official answer in writing. The fact is the risk of sustaining an eye injury from a 5mw laser, even with a magnified optic, is so negligible that it's not worth having a discussion on. Virtually, if not absolutely, non existent risk when applied to Airsoft. When planning an event I'm more worried about having the proper tools on hand to address a broken bone, a chipped tooth, large cuts / blood loss, hypothermia or any no duff scenario. I'm not worried about a type of injury that has never been reported in the history of 5mw 635nm lasers existing.

At the end of the day, the free market rules out. I openly post well ahead of time what lasers are allowed at my events. Frank's Basement Industries Cuztim-Modd娪 Lasers are out. Don't like it? Don't show up. If you think FDA approved red lasers are not safe, that is your opinion and you are free to not attend. It's probably the safest thing at the event but if you have a personal vendetta against safe, commercial radiation emitting devices because of some crazy, vague non-specific hypothetical situation then I got nothing for you. If you have an axe to grind stop trying to claim it's in other peoples interests. People will respect you more if you just admit to being petty.

At the end of the day, the FDA is a lot smarter than you or I. They said it's safe, I trust them. My players trust them. People who don't trust them are free to shop somewhere else.

Cause I mean those 5mw lasers at the end of the day are






















And when the question comes up whether or not the lasers you are shining in other peoples eyes are? You can say


Last edited by Derpystronk; November 3rd, 2015 at 02:55..
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Old November 3rd, 2015, 04:00   #520
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deltastronk View Post
So when we go from there, okay, a 4x optic like an ACOG means you are 4x closer to the beam. So what would be a distance of 1 foot, you would get the same exposure at 4 feet through the optic. Getting hit with a laser at 10 feet is the same as getting hit with one at 40 feet while looking through your ACOG. But the exposure is still "safe" at 1 foot just as it is and 10 feet, so whats the problem? If it's safe to look into at even 1 inch, it's safe to look at from 30 feet away with a short dot.
3x scope, 5mW 4mm beam going in comes out roughly 1.5mm on the other side. 7x higher density.
The singular reason you hate the G&P DBAL and Element PEQ so much is because they're "Chinese and untrustworthy". But for some reason Chinese red lasers are just safe as can be? Because apparently when China makes red lasers, they follow all the rules.
Stock G&P 3mW IR laser = super dangerous
Stock Element <1mW IR laser = death ray
Any given Chinese 5mW red laser = no problems? no complaints? nothing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deltastronk View Post
But what you are doing right now is being upset that the community is not cool with your basement mod lasers, so now nobody can have any lasers.
"community", handful of vocal admins from Ontario? I've had orders from Ontario and the US that I've refused, and they're allowed in the prairies. Nothing to really be sore about. Not any of my business if they're not allowed in Ontario.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deltastronk View Post
I mean here you are complaining about risk of eye injuries from something that has never caused any, while you are playing in closer quarters with shooting glasses on
I wear ballistic glasses to protect against the physical impact of BBs.
But I don't wear the special oakley laser lenses on the odd chance someone starts intentionally shining a laser at my face. Which actually happened at that game, what a coincidence. Should have been wearing those laser lenses after all.
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Old November 3rd, 2015, 05:02   #521
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderCactus View Post
3x scope, 5mW 4mm beam going in comes out roughly 1.5mm on the other side. 7x higher density.
7x the density at a distance where a 3x scope is practical to be employed while being flashed with a laser that is certified eye safe to not cause eye damage w/ a blink reflex at a distance of less than 1cm. Oh no!

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no problems? no complaints? nothing?
Who is allowing China lasers at games?

Quote:
Not any of my business if they're not allowed in Ontario.
Then don't bring it up

Quote:
I wear ballistic glasses to protect against the physical impact of BBs.
And you don't wear adequate eye protection to prevent the real risk of well documented eye injuries from BB strikes yet complain about a risk for an injury that has never occurred before in history, ever.
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Old November 3rd, 2015, 11:08   #522
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gish View Post
I have a tester. I've tested these two models
https://shop.jkarmy.com/element-dbal...ex-328-bk.html
https://shop.jkarmy.com/element-peq-...-5-uhp-de.html
Both are below or near 1mw
If you tested 40 models of each I would be confident.
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Old November 4th, 2015, 00:13   #523
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deltastronk View Post


And you don't wear adequate eye protection to prevent the real risk of well documented eye injuries from BB strikes yet complain about a risk for an injury that has never occurred before in history, ever.

I recall a laser based 'blinding'. An American Navy airman and a Canadian helicopter pilot were 'given' permanent eye damage from a ~5mw laser from a Russian merchant ship sometime in the 90's. Something about SIGINT spying from the Russians on the West Coast. I can't recall the name of the incident. I do remember researching laser based eye injuries when EAR reviewed it's stance on lasers back in 09.


EDIT:
Found it, Can't find information on the laser now though, I do remember seeing the information regarding laser based blinding weapons.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strait...laser_incident


TL DR
Never is not the correct word to use.

In a perfect world everyone would have made in a trustworthy source (medical/military/scientific) grade lasers and the risks would be small. However, that is not quite yet a reality of manufacturing.
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Last edited by Azathoth; November 4th, 2015 at 00:19..
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Old November 4th, 2015, 01:05   #524
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Originally Posted by Deltastronk View Post
And you don't wear adequate eye protection to prevent the real risk of well documented eye injuries from BB strikes yet complain about a risk for an injury that has never occurred before in history, ever.
The issue is due diligence to mitigate a known risk, no matter how remote.

One lawsuit, or charge of assault by a disgruntled player will make your point moot in an instant.

And, if said damage does not, or has not occurred, there would be no ratings on lasers at all, and nobody would be regulating them, anywhere.

Your stance on this issue is irresponsible at best, and malicious at worst.
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Old November 4th, 2015, 01:06   #525
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Azathoth View Post
EDIT:
Found it, Can't find information on the laser now though, I do remember seeing the information regarding laser based blinding weapons.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strait...laser_incident
I'm going to assume that since that article mentions he suffered pain and temporary blindness (not flash blindness) and made no mention of being hit with a laser until the medical examination determined what likely happened - It was almost certainly a high powered infrared laser that hit the aircraft. I mean it's pretty obvious when you get hit with a visible laser.

US Troops are regularly issued hand held targeting lasers in the hundreds of mw of power. Ones mounted on vehicle or crew served platforms can sometimes have even more powerful outputs. In short, getting hit with one even at a distance is enough to ruin your day. It happens to a lot of troops returning from war zones and is a really big issue that is still being investigated right now.

Quote:
TL DR
Never is not the correct word to use.

In a perfect world everyone would have made in a trustworthy source (medical/military/scientific) grade lasers and the risks would be small. However, that is not quite yet a reality of manufacturing.
Never is correct word when the statement is that it has never happened before in history. The FDA has zero reported injuries of a <5mw red visible spectrum laser causing any damage when people are not deliberately looking into the beam for prolonged periods of time. Those who deliberately exposed themselves for extended periods suffered a temporary injury to their eye that, in the majority, healed completely within a few days. That is a guy holding a laser to his eye for a full minute and it still healed.

The vast majority of laser injuries come from improperly labeled China lasers (such as improperly manufactured China lasers that leak a large amount of IR light). The risk to pilots is flash blindness since the receiving end of that dot is the size of their cockpit. A much different problem but very much a real hazard to those operating air craft.

We all go with FDA approved lasers - Lasers that were manufactured, rated and approved for sale within specification criteria. Doing so eliminates almost all the potential risk of eye injury. China lasers are out - I have seen NCStar lasers on two separate occasions leak dangerous IR light. That is just me, personally. So NCstar is out. G&P cheapo lasers, despite looking cool on guns, are also out since their labels are not accurate. If there is any doubt what so ever the laser warning sticker on your unit is falsified, or the unit is not properly rated or no one knows who the manufacturer is - it's also out. When in doubt: it's out.

There are much, much bigger risks through playing the game that warrant discussions before we even get to the topic of lasers. As long as people are using real steel FDA approved lasers then that risk drops to very, very low levels. If you want to use a laser at one of the events? You can go out and buy a real laser from a real manufacturer. They aren't that expensive. If you can't do that, you don't get the privilege to use one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcguyver View Post
And, if said damage does not, or has not occurred, there would be no ratings on lasers at all, and nobody would be regulating them, anywhere.

Your stance on this issue is irresponsible at best, and malicious at worst.
If you have any documentation of a <5mw red laser causing permanent eye damage from anything but deliberate long term exposure, I would love to see it.

If you believe my implementation of safety standards is wrong, or deliberately malicious, that's fine. You do not need to attend any of my events. Free market at work. However anyone not coming to my events for risk of damage from a rated <5mw red laser, I would also expect to see them advocating for full seal, full face mask games that have mandatory eating and hydration periods only played at venues that have had their properties meticulously sweeped for injury hazards.

And I mean, no night airsoft anymore either. Too risky.

Last edited by Derpystronk; November 4th, 2015 at 06:28..
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