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nvg for indoor cqb?

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Old July 11th, 2017, 23:22   #31
ThunderCactus
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The most common problem so far has been inaccurate descriptions of what tube is in the unit. I'm sure you'd know better than I would, but how often does someone get royally fucked on a gen3 deal on ASC?
Not to say it can't happen, but chances are pretty darn low thus far... Warranty is nice, but what's the lowest price you'd seen on a photonis 4G unit with autogating so far?

I think we can both agree this is WAY off topic from the original post lol
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Old July 11th, 2017, 23:33   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderCactus View Post
The most common problem so far has been inaccurate descriptions of what tube is in the unit. I'm sure you'd know better than I would, but how often does someone get royally fucked on a gen3 deal on ASC?
Um without going into details I know a few times it has happened - once even to me and possibly even one a few months back, so, yeah. I'm not going to say it's a widespread issue but it's an inherent risk that comes with the territory. So saying the Gen 3 hands down, 100% of the time, is always the better deal is a little bit dangerous.

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I think we can both agree this is WAY off topic from the original post lol
Oh, sure, this is one of the few times I'm not directly trying to call you out in particular since the info you have seems to be good, I have far more issue with the info Ben is saying because it seems like if some guy managed to find some cheapo gen 2's at a bargain OP would be 100% happy

I also suggested he'd probably be happy with the Spark if he could get it low enough, given what he wants to use it for

I'm just of the opinion the Gen 2 bashing in general needs to stop, and I think c3sk's comment is by far one of the best in the thread as it summarizes why;// A very good friend of mine runs a pair of extremely early omni 3/4 "beater" night vision tubes for his Bino set, and he absolutely slays in Airsoft against folk with ridiculously high spec tubes.
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Old July 11th, 2017, 23:39   #33
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Originally Posted by W E W tastronk View Post
And as Anthony said above, compare apples to apples. You seem to be unwilling to admit there are different circumstances that drive these prices and you need to factor it into your purchase decision (ie risk inherent to used gen 3 such as lack of history, no warranty, etc)

These are important factors as well that inform whether or not a price is a good deal. Some people may hold different opinions than you in this regard.
That is true and Ill agree with you, Op has though stated a budget of <3000$ which rules out both of our options, so our bickering is pointless, and as thundercactus has mentioned, waaaaaaaaay off topic.

As such ill reiterate my opinion of useful information for OP:

1) AABB pvs-14 thingy from an airsoftstore
pros:
-cheap
-works on the same principle as the ir cameras
cons:
-not a real night visiony feel, as it isnt really night vision, it could be considered digital night vision at best
-unusable outdoors if you choose to do that
-may be very crap, ive only looked through one breifly

2) used gen 2
pros:
-cheapish compared to used gen 3 and new top end photonis gen 2 (1200-2000$)
-is useable outdoors with minimal supplementary ir light (might need an ir light to see into dark shadows or to give you some brightness to make out objects on occasion on really dark nights)
-can be found in canada with relitive ease, and there is the option to buy new low/mid end gen 2 in country for around the 2500$ mark (GSCI gs-14)
cons:
-low photocathode sensitivity (darker image on moonless nights/cloud cover)
-lets be honest 2000$ for something you use for 20 minutes a month or 3 of 4 times a year is a ton of money

those are what i would consider, having owned gen 1 for 2 years I wouldnt bother with it even though it may work alright with the supplementary IR light, the AABB thingy is a bit narrow minded and I think it would only be adaquate in your exact situation, it isnt a very diverse piece of kit. the gen 2 can do a lot more things but costs significantly more.

"I have far more issue with the info Ben is saying because it seems like if some guy managed to find some cheapo gen 2's at a bargain OP would be 100% happy"

why wouldnt he be? hes playing in an indoor environment with supplementary IR, as much as everyone seems to write off low/mid end gen 2, it does produce a usable, albeit sometimes dark image, in most situations you find yourself in airsoft. Dont get me wrong, id LOVE to have gen 3, and im by no means saying that gen 2 is the best you can get for airsoft purposes, because clearly it isnt. What I am trying to get across is that you can have an enjoyable night vision experience at an airsoft game, using a lower end generation 2 tube, you dont have to drop that extra grand and a half to be satisfied if your willing to use an ir light to peer into corners or to id targets or clarify an object that is in a dim image, and for some people saving an extra 1500$ is well worth having to shine an ir light every so often, and its not like it totaly ruins your tactical advantage, there is a very good chance that someone with gen 3 has already detected you, and more then likly gen 1 doesnt have enough photocathode sensitivity to even pick up your ir light if you buy the right one.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderCactus View Post
I think that's the direction I should have gone with this one though.
gen1 - I can't see shit
gen2 - I see LOTS of green, but not many people
gen3 - Nobody wants to play with me because I'm an elitist asshole now

Last edited by BenG; July 12th, 2017 at 00:44..
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Old July 11th, 2017, 23:56   #34
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Well OP is playing CQB in a well IR illuminated CQB environment. Beyond having a tube that has reasonable sensitivity to IR, the price you're spending for better equipment is a pretty steep curve for not a whole heck of amazing gain.
I mean if you're shelling out the cash for brand new top end photonis 4G, or omni 3/4 comparable gen3, then you'd almost certainly be better off saving money and buying cheap thermal for CQB lol
In the 40-60ft range, you're still going to potentially run into shadowed areas that even gen3 has trouble seeing into. So you can use IR light, which will give you away, or use cheap thermal so see right into it. You might be able to ID targets by gear in the leupold LTO at that range, but somehow I doubt a torrey pines could tell a dog apart from a pair of children standing together closely at that range.

I've got a photonis comm spec tube myself, and despite being crap compared to an XR5, and even noticeably less good than a supergen, I'd still headmount it for CQB.
You can get a night optics ambia gen 2 (which may actually be something lower tier than photonis comm spec, not sure what they use anymore) for about $1300 CAD. Which is an amazing entry price into gen 2 considering how crap our dollar is right now, AND it'll do everything OP needs it to do, plus warranty.
Biggest issues are going to be fishbowl (almost unavoidable at that price), low resolution (no so bad when you're only dealing within 75ft), and noise (only a real problem in low light, not brightly IR lit areas).

I really think low to mid range gen2 is what's called for here; in the $1200-$2000 range. But what would you recommend, specifically?
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Old July 12th, 2017, 01:00   #35
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I think you hit it on the head with the Ambia. If he can get that low grade Gen 2 within the 1500 and under price range (assuming new, taxes in, etc) this is ideal. Should do most of what he needs it to do, retains resale value, etc.

I've never used an Armasight Spark before in any real situation - looked through one briefly, but I imagine in a CQB arena with IR flooded CCTV systems, it might be good enough as well. This and a good IR Surefire and you are laughing. If he can get one of those Sparks sub 500 dollars, I'd say it might be a good starting point as well. He can sell it in and around that price to get his money back out of it when he goes to sell it.

I would say these are the two best options before you start going down the three thousand dollar NVG Rabbit Hole.
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Old July 14th, 2017, 14:02   #36
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wow, thanks guys, I really appreciate your inputs, i just gotta find a cheap spark or ambia now, any directions for me to start?
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Old July 14th, 2017, 14:28   #37
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Originally Posted by kudougw View Post
wow, thanks guys, I really appreciate your inputs, i just gotta find a cheap spark or ambia now, any directions for me to start?
The version night optics made before the ambia is called the D300, they made an MS version which is the same price as the ambia and they made an SHP (super high preformance) version that goes for around 2000$ on these forums, both kinds of those D300s show up on occasion on the forums so keep your eyes out there, as far as new just keep your eyes peeled on various websites, ive seen them occasionally both the D300s and ambia on amazon.ca, the spark I saw on scoutbasecamp.ca for around 500$, and ive seen used ones go for around 300-400$ on this forum and on the facebook groups
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderCactus View Post
I think that's the direction I should have gone with this one though.
gen1 - I can't see shit
gen2 - I see LOTS of green, but not many people
gen3 - Nobody wants to play with me because I'm an elitist asshole now
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Old July 24th, 2017, 13:19   #38
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Time for my 2 cents.

Buy the products that fits your use case for best results.

I wouldn't bother with I2 style NVG setups for those conditions. You can home brew a digital night vision unit from a camcorder for ~300-500 dollars and will serve you as well since:

1) you are indoors and the place is filled with IR light sources
2) it's far cheaper and you're not going to really use it in any meaningful way,
3) its easily disposable and if gets shot out Who cares.

I think Ben suggested it above somewhere. If you like what you are getting and want to start using NV outdoors you'll want to consider replacing that with someone completely different. unless you are on a well lit paintball field at night.

Usage / budget drives what you should be considering to purchase. If you are taking night sky photography through a high power telescope a 'tactical' grade tube is not necessarily ideal.
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