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WANT NV? READ THIS A Buyers Guide to NVGs (Night Vision)

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Old July 3rd, 2016, 01:03   #31
AnthonyG
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Lots of interesting information in here. I definitely don't plan on buying NODs for a while if at all, but what might be a useful addition is a summary section that makes suggestions based on budget. Ie) if I have a 3k, 4k or 5k budget what is the recommended setup, what should I prioritize? This would give readers who want NODs a benchmark budget so they know what to expect.

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Old July 3rd, 2016, 02:04   #32
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gen3 will be 2800-4k for a monocular
gen2 anywhere from 1000-3000ish (anything under 1800 isn't very good, anything under 1400 is pure garbage, 2000 is the right area, above that is just options like autogating)
gen1 in the $50-$700ish range, should really stay away from anything that isn't top end if you're buying gen1

And don't forget to add in the hardware you're going to use to mount it;
$200 gen1 riflescope kit, $150 weapon mount bracket for PVS-14, $260 helmet + $120 rhino mount + $40 counterweight pouch, etc.
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Old July 3rd, 2016, 11:19   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyG View Post
Lots of interesting information in here. I definitely don't plan on buying NODs for a while if at all, but what might be a useful addition is a summary section that makes suggestions based on budget. Ie) if I have a 3k, 4k or 5k budget what is the recommended setup, what should I prioritize? This would give readers who want NODs a benchmark budget so they know what to expect.

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NOD:
2000 - 4000+
Typical monocular, decent gen2+ on low end, auto gated gen 3 on high end.

Mounting Hardware:
100 - 1000+
Shitty USGI Rhino and J arm on low end, G24, AKA2, INVG + J-arm or Dual Dovetail on high end.

Optic (you want either this or a laser, this is more important IMO):
200 - 1000+
Holoson on low end, Aimpoint on high end. There is a lot of in between such as Vortex, EOTech, Trijicon etc. Of course you can also spend more and get a thermal optic, Elcan Spectre, ITL MARS etc. but that stuff isn't very common.

Laser (optional but nice to have, prioritize an optic):
200 - 2000+
Lasermax pistol laser on low end, ATPIAL-C on high. Expensive shit has other functions such as visible laser and IR illuminator as well. For just a laser, 200 - 1k with an OTAL on the high end of the price range. Between 1k and 2k you get shit with illumination or visible, so DBAL, CQBL etc.

1k - don't waste your 1k
2k - don't waste your 2k
3k - Gen 2+ Photonis tube, USGI Rhino and J Arm, Holosun optic
4k - Low end Gen 3 tube, USGI Rhino and J Arm, Holosun optic
5k+ - Choose your own shit.
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Old July 3rd, 2016, 11:34   #34
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Truly, if you have to ask "How much?", you probably can't afford it. Old saying that rings true for virtually everything.

Of more importance than cost is availability. You can't take your newly-minted gold Visa into Cabela's or even ebay and just buy an IR laser and an Insight Night Enforcer PVS-14. These items are ITAR prohibited, the DoS is not issuing export permits for those. It is not like exporting a stock or Eotech sight that is regulated, but still exportable. Every one of these things in Canada is grey-market, and was either illegally exported or sold in violation of an export permit to a company or agency, whether in Canada oroverseas. They are perfectly legal to possess in Canada, as well as in the US (if you are a citizen), but crossing the border is a felony.

So, simply saying "I want night vision" means the goid stuff ranges from very hard/expensive to get to unobtanium, unless you want to settle for Russian tubes in modern chassis, or you source outside of ITAR and are prepared to pay huge money.

This is far more important than "how much for a decent setup", and belies the fact that buying new is impossible for the average guy.
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Old July 3rd, 2016, 12:20   #35
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Out of interest, does anybody have experience with Russian Gen 2 / 3 stuff?

Had the opportunity to buy a tube a while ago, but had such little information about the quality that I passed.
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Old July 3rd, 2016, 23:41   #36
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Originally Posted by Ace of Spades© View Post
Out of interest, does anybody have experience with Russian Gen 2 / 3 stuff?

Had the opportunity to buy a tube a while ago, but had such little information about the quality that I passed.
I currently have a russian made DVS-8 with a gen III tube in it, when compared to my friends US omni 7 tube its basicly identical, a little less bright, but same amount of noise and definition. if you buy the right russian stuff it can be just as good as US stuff, but this also requires a fair amount of luck.

pic is through the dvs-8, and is incredably blurry, its crystal clear in real life

13335748_1084432194936870_4885071145616285815_n.jpg
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Originally Posted by ThunderCactus View Post
I think that's the direction I should have gone with this one though.
gen1 - I can't see shit
gen2 - I see LOTS of green, but not many people
gen3 - Nobody wants to play with me because I'm an elitist asshole now
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Old July 29th, 2016, 20:53   #37
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Originally Posted by pestobanana View Post
NOD:

Optic (you want either this or a laser, this is more important IMO):
200 - 1000+
Holoson on low end, Aimpoint on high end. There is a lot of in between such as Vortex, EOTech, Trijicon etc. Of course you can also spend more and get a thermal optic, Elcan Spectre, ITL MARS etc. but that stuff isn't very common.

I don't agee with your choices of Vortex / holosun. I had a Vortex Viper PST 2015 manufacture with 3 NV settings. NV settings were not usable with Gen 3 NV. The light coming from the optic was like a light saber. I would say their is a 100% chance that you would burn in the your NODS with the VIPER, (running gen 3 OMNI VII).

for Optics, its get mil grade or GTFO, Eotech, aimpoint, trijicon, Elcan etc.
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Old July 30th, 2016, 00:26   #38
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Originally Posted by Azathoth View Post
I don't agee with your choices of Vortex / holosun. I had a Vortex Viper PST 2015 manufacture with 3 NV settings. NV settings were not usable with Gen 3 NV. The light coming from the optic was like a light saber. I would say their is a 100% chance that you would burn in the your NODS with the VIPER, (running gen 3 OMNI VII).

for Optics, its get mil grade or GTFO, Eotech, aimpoint, trijicon, Elcan etc.
I do not believe Vortex is the same as Holosun. I have teammates that use Holosun and Vortex red dots with their OMNI VII tubes and I have not heard of them having issues. I personally don't have any real experience because I only use Aimpoint optics myself. I glanced through them and didn't find anything particularly off putting, but I don't know anyone that uses the Viper, only the Sparc.
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Old November 10th, 2016, 11:10   #39
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With the 5+ PVS14s floating on the Classifieds right now and various other channels, I've gotten a lot of inquiries about spec sheets and autogating.

Spec sheets - these will be accompanying commercially-bought units (eg: TNVC typically, or units sent in for testing through companies like Ident Marking). Please stop asking for them for mil-surp units. That having been said, mil-surp units will have contract numbers stamped on the tube itself and visible through the ocular assembly through the viewing windows, so these can be matched up to a particular timeframe and corresponding OMNI spec.

Autogating - Autogated units emit a faint hunt when powered on, so it's easy to find out whether or not a particular unit is autogated. The current CAD price (at the time of me writing this) for any blem-free autogated unit starts at about $3400 for a comm-spec unit and goes up from there for OMNI 7 and filmless tubes, up to over $4300+. If you are able to find one for lower than these stated prices then either 1) You're getting a hella deal; or 2) The seller hasn't accurately described the item and you should do some fact-checking.

OMNI 7 vs 8 - You honestly won't be able to tell a difference.

Here's a quick and dirty pricing guide, assuming all tubes are blem-free. Adjust pricing accordingly.
  • OMNI 4 PVS-14 (non-autogated) - $3200
  • OMNI 7/8 PVS-14 (gated, thin-film) - $3900-4300+
  • Filmless PVS-14 - $4000+
  • Mod3 with OMNI 7-equivalent spec tubes (Pinnacle Ultras) - $11k+
  • Sentinels with OMNI 7-equivalent spec tubes - $12k+
  • Sentinels with filmless White Phosphor tubes - $13k+
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Old November 10th, 2016, 12:56   #40
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Just a matter of opinion here steve,

In your opinion does a comm-spec blem free omni 7 vs a milsurp (genuine or off the back of a truck) have any difference in price?

We know what the minimum specification is for mil spec units, but the comm-specs with genuine data sheets can have specs far above the mean (or minimum standard) called for in milspec.

I would also add that blemishes in the outer edges really don't affect price nearly as much as blemishes in the "A" zone or centre.
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Old November 10th, 2016, 14:14   #41
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When I consider the price of a autogated tube i generally take the cost of that tube without gating and add 400-600$ to the price tag, because thats the typical cost to add autogating to a tube.

good point Steve on omni tubes not coming with spec sheets, ive updated this thread to state that and im including here and where ive stated a chart of the typical specs of contract tubes

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_18/31...fferences.html

EDIT: this is what I have added:

*it should be noted that contract tubes (typically will be advertised as "omni <insert roman numerals/number here> ex: pvs-14 omni 4/ pvs-14 omni IV) do not have data sheets instead the different contracts (omni's) had to meet specific specifications, each batch of a specific omni run may or may not have had a different requirment, the following chart can serve as a baseline or average reference for each contract, but your specific tube may be above or slightly below this outline.

Notes about contract tubes:
-omni I, II, III tubes are hard if not impossible to find and are not worth your time and money if you manage to find one, modern day gen 2 is superior in almost every aspect (except photosensitivity)
-omni VII tubes may also be referred to as "pinnical" or "filmless"
-omni VIII tubes may be referred to as filmless or pinnical and are often incorrectly reffered to as "gen 4"
-it should be noted that omni VII and later tubes almost always come with autogating due to the fragility of the tube, which is both more fragile in its potential to be harmed by bright lights (although this is completely negated with autogating), and its physical resistance to shock (ex: recoil, being dropped), however omni VII + tubes produce greatly improved images

Contract (omni) tube spec sheet reference:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderCactus View Post
I think that's the direction I should have gone with this one though.
gen1 - I can't see shit
gen2 - I see LOTS of green, but not many people
gen3 - Nobody wants to play with me because I'm an elitist asshole now

Last edited by BenG; November 10th, 2016 at 16:44..
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Old November 10th, 2016, 16:28   #42
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OMNI VII is where "filmless" first appears, as well as "thin-filmed". It is the These tubes that are labelled as "gen 4"

Taken from my post on edmontonairsoft
Quote:
Posting this as a request from the previous night game. This will answer commonly asked question that you see here and on our national board ASC.

Q: I found a used pair of NV on sale from "X" place should I buy it?
A: General answer is no. Rule number one of buying NV. Don't buy used unless you know the supplier and can get your money back. If you read further on, you will see about the life span of the tubes etc. Their is no way you can test the remaining life of a tube without destroying the tube.

Q: I have "X" money to spend what should I buy.
A: Simple answer it's your money, you can do what you want with it. Long answer, If you are trying to look operator as fuck buy a dummy PVS14 / GPNVG from a Chinese airsoft site, ebay, or airsoft retailer. Some of them are functional using close circuit television camera's use smart watch displays on the inside. They range from 200-700 dollars. For a "quality QCd" in the USA one you are looking in the 300-450 USD mark. If you want functional NVG then go check out the NIGHT VISION GENERATION COMPARSION as it shows you in pictures what each generation can do under realistic tactical conditions. Also link HIGH END DIGITAL NIGHT VISION VS HIGH END IMAGE INTENSIFER NIGHT VISION you can see the difference between multi-thousand dollar digital NV vs image intensifier systems.

Q: OK seriously I have $500.00 What do I buy?
A: Get a Surefire flashlight, they run 80-150 dollars new depending on where you buy them from and you will be far getter off than any kind of NV you can possibly spend in the <2,000 range. DO NOT buy flashlights that are not military or tactical grade unless you are a flashlight modder. This means DO NOT BUY FENIX, KLARUS, ****FIRE lights unless you are a lumen head modder.

Q: Seriously dude, listen to me I have 500-600 dollars what do I buy
A: On a super tight budget you use a Sightmark ghost hunter 1x24 which is a Gen 1 unit. It looks like a PVS-15, and with some hardware store screws, a dremel, JB weld, and some chinese grade clone mounting hardware, and some time you can helmet mount them. In some cases it's better than nothing. Guides are available on youtube.

Q: What about thermal?
A: What about it? Hunting thermal and the iphone / cell phone clip on systems are currently not suitable for tactical use. They do not have the range, sensitivity, shock/water proof, weapon or helmet mountable, on screen refresh rate.... Entry level systems run 8,000 USD which is much more than Gen 3 NVG, and they are very poor compared to military grade units which cost upwards of 20,000 dollars. Having used these units to hunt, and varmint on the farm, I would rather use NVG than thermal. Their is no way to aim with a thermal device.

Q: How long does the NVD last?
A: Depending on the generation and the technology: Short answer
Gen 0: ~500 hrs
Gen 1: ~500 hrs
Gen 2: ~5,000 hrs
Gen 3: 20,000 - 30,000 hrs
Gen "4" FLAG: 1,000 - 2,000 hrs

Long answer: depends if its auto-gated and how much light the unit is exposed to. Gen 3 Tubes use a gallium arsenic coating to intensify light. The more light that the tube is exposed to the more of this chemical is "used up". Their is a protective layer of 'film' that protects this coating on Gen 2 and Gen 3 tubes, on Gen 4 or FLAG (filmless autogated) tubes their is no protective film which results in a VERY short lifespan of the tube. The life span of the tube is based on clinical conditions, and when your life span is up it doesn't mean the unit stops working. It means that the image and amount of light that can be intensified is reduced. A gen 3 tube at 40,000 hrs of use will give you a poor image probably comparable to gen 1, while a Gen 1 unit will just be functionally useless.

Q: How do you aim down sites with NVG?
A: You can't physically do it unless its weapon mounted. Which leads us to the question regarding optics.

Q: What optics to use with weapon mounted NV?
A: A quality NV compatible one of course. I have seen many NVGs with burned out spots caused from rifle scopes, red dots that are illuminated. They have a dark ring, chevron, cross hair, or dot that is completely black in the image. At the moment the only real options are genuine military grade optics such as Eotech, Aimpoint. Budget lines like Vortex does have a NV setting but it's really damn bright. So bright that it washes out the NV, Actually, my VIPER PST was so bright under the lowest NV setting that it could have been used as a IR flashlight. I wish i kept the pictures because it looked like a lightsabre under NV. The best budget option is a Genuine Aimpoint PRO ~$350.00.

Q: What is Signal to noise mean?
A: Simply put signal to noise (StN) is "static" that you get from the tube when you crank up our gain or are amplifying light. In this picture below you can see some white artifacts in the image. This comes from static in the image like the old bunny ear TVs. Picture taken with a Cell phone and by pressing the optical sensor to the NV. It's a fucking awful way to take images and it makes NV images look terrible. I need to buy a camera adapter for my Canon(s)


: What about IR light?
A: If you are running digital NV you will need IR light. Most of the time units will have built in IR illumination of some kind. But on cloudy days with no moon you will need a IR light if you are running anything other than a Gen 3 OMNI VII unit. Chinese knock off IR flashlights can get the job done. You can hack the lights to provide a smooth and even spread of light comparable to quality IR flashlights, However military grade IR flashlights are far better, and the cost is relatively cheap on the used market ~150-250 dollars. I recommend that you keep the power of the IR light to <150mw of power non coherent light (non-laser) as it is safe to shine at people, the power recommendation is to balance the life span of your NODS with the quality of image. Their is a VERY good reason why the US military issued flashlight (m952v) has a max output of ~120mw of IR light. Remember their is some bleed through on the light wavelengths. You can see visible faint red hue from a IR flashlights, the Surefire m952v does have this red hue as well but it's the smallest and viewable only under specific angles and distances. By far the most effective at reducing the red glow of any IR light I have used.

People running higher end NV will see IR light, using IR light paints you out like a light house. This actually isn't a very big deal if the event is planned well. On a half moon or better No NVG is actually better than running a low to mid grade Gen 2 unit. Their is generally enough light for everyone to see even on a cloudy night with half moon. If their are dozens of people running Gen 1, or Gen 2 NVG then their will be so much IR output that it won't even matter, and their are strategies to prevent being picked on by higher end NV users.

Q: So what about lasers for aiming?
A: Lasers give away your position. Ideally....
1. Flood with IR illumination so you can walk your BBs onto target; or
2. Have a properly dialed in IR laser so you have a vague idea what you are aiming at
3. Be a skilled shooter

Lasers:
Big controversy here. different clubs, games, provinces have different rules. And IR lasers are a very, very controversial subject.

FACTS:
IR lasers shone to the eyes will cause permanent blind spots and/or blindness
They do not cause a blink reflex as the beam is not visible.
It is more expensive to engineer a low power IR laser than a high power one.
"EYE SAFE" by military standards (training) is 0.7mw. Zero point seven milliwatts
It is highly recommended that Live fire pistols use a IR laser no more powerful than 0.1 mw. Zero point one milliwatts
BB's do not follow a straight path like a real bullet does.

Chinese knockoffs have power ratings between 3mw to 50mw. The lasers on these units shine a 'dot' or point that grows as the distance increases. This is because of poor focusing mechanisms on the laser, and bleeding of the frequency of light transmitted. A nail head sized dot at 50 ft becomes a dinner plate sized 'dot' at 150ft, etc. You can easily shine a dinner plate sized 'dot' onto someone's face and permanently blind them.

Q: When someone shines a flashlight at you does it flare?
A: Short answer, not on nice units. Long answer read this: NIGHT VISION GENERATION COMPARSION, keep in mind that the camera is causing a lot of the bright spots in the linked pictures. The image that you see with the naked eye is much nicer

Q: Everyone at "X" game has Gen 3 I don't wanna play against them..... WAAAH :BABY FACE:
A: Go to training days and learn how to work around it and defeat the systems. Learn how to see the systems in the dark (yes, NVG is visible to the naked eye at dark). I didn't have quality NV until 2013 and i've been playing for almost 25 years. Learn to use a flashlight effectively, also it takes dedicated training to operate with NV effectively. It does take LOTS of practice to walk up a flight of stairs using NV, let alone wandering around in the bush or urban environment. At the largest games in Alberta, you can expect to see 10 people running some kind of NV out of 150 or so players.

Q: Can I make it myself?
A: Technically yes, You can make the systems yourself if you are capable of soldering at a skilled level, and have access to clean room to nitrogen purge the unit and do the soldering and assembly in. Digital NV you can make on your own from parts you get from ALIEXPRESS. Basically short of the housing it can run you around 100-150 dollars to build a digital PVS 14 clone equivalent that the airsoft websites sell.

Q: Can I upgrade my system with better image intensifiers?
A: Short answer no. Long answer basically no. If you bought a genuine NVD then you could replace the tubes with the same specification tubes of higher quality. The issue is going back to the last question of making the system yourself. It's rather common to see binocular setups that are disassembled to create two monocles. The binocular housing is then sold off.
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Old November 10th, 2016, 18:23   #43
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Interestingly enough, OMNI V is actually where they first introduced thin-film and filmless tubes under MX-10160B/AVS-6.
There's also 2 thin film ITT tubes and 1 filmless litton tube in OMNI VI.
The contract specifications of OMNI V are lower than OMNI VI, but due to the lack of spec sheets, that doesn't mean you couldn't have better performing tubes in OMNI V than OMNI VI. Allegedly NGEOS had a 2592 FOM tube in MX-10160B/AVS-6 boasting a wicked 36SNR, so that puts it in either OMNI V or OMNI VI.

Keep in mind they were filling contracts out to a minimum spec, so it's very likely they could have released OMNI VII tech tubes during the OMNI VI contract. All the state department cares about is whether or not they meet the minimum spec.
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Old November 10th, 2016, 23:48   #44
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Originally Posted by BenG View Post
When I consider the price of a autogated tube i generally take the cost of that tube without gating and add 400-600$ to the price tag, because thats the typical cost to add autogating to a tube.

good point Steve on omni tubes not coming with spec sheets, ive updated this thread to state that and im including here and where ive stated a chart of the typical specs of contract tubes

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_18/31...fferences.html

EDIT: this is what I have added:

*it should be noted that contract tubes (typically will be advertised as "omni <insert roman numerals/number here> ex: pvs-14 omni 4/ pvs-14 omni IV) do not have data sheets instead the different contracts (omni's) had to meet specific specifications, each batch of a specific omni run may or may not have had a different requirment, the following chart can serve as a baseline or average reference for each contract, but your specific tube may be above or slightly below this outline.

Notes about contract tubes:
-omni I, II, III tubes are hard if not impossible to find and are not worth your time and money if you manage to find one, modern day gen 2 is superior in almost every aspect (except photosensitivity)
-omni VII tubes may also be referred to as "pinnical" or "filmless"
-omni VIII tubes may be referred to as filmless or pinnical and are often incorrectly reffered to as "gen 4"
-it should be noted that omni VII and later tubes almost always come with autogating due to the fragility of the tube, which is both more fragile in its potential to be harmed by bright lights (although this is completely negated with autogating), and its physical resistance to shock (ex: recoil, being dropped), however omni VII + tubes produce greatly improved images

Contract (omni) tube spec sheet reference:
If you want to come off as more intelligent, you really need to fix your spelling, it is honestly painful. Should also work on your word choice. You honestly sound like a high school kid regurgitating often incorrect information that was digested from Wikipedia and forum posts. I'm no night vision expert, but I'm not going to pretend to be because I've read shit on my computer.

For pricing, I think you should listen to Steve. He has FAR more experience than you.

Contract specs are MINIMUM specs. Not average specs, MINIMUM. Contract tubes are guaranteed to be above those specs. Tubes that do not meet those specs are not delivered under that contract. They are also not "advertised" as OMNI whatever, they will have the tube model and contract number engraved on the tube housing - delivered under an OMNI contract. Just because one OMNI contract had higher specs than another doesn't mean one is necessarily better than the other. You can view it be removing the ocular lens, or putting the lens in light and looking in sideways.

That chart is a good reference, however it is not entirely correct. I have a MX-10160C. The contract number is DAAB07-02-C-J008 and according to the table is OMNI IV, but it is actually OMNI VI.

Not all OMNI VII and VIII tubes are Pinnacle nor filmless tubes. OMNI VIII was not incorrectly referred to as Gen 4, filmless is sometimes referred to as Gen 4 and OMNI VII replaced Gen 4. OMNI VIII specs are actually lower than VII because the specs were too high and production goals were not being met.

Auto gating does NOT completely negate damage from high light. It limits/reduces it. You can still burn out an auto gated tube. If I recall, the purpose of auto gating was to improve performance under dynamic lighting conditions/reduce bloom, for filmless tubes it prevents damage from ion poisoning.

Last edited by pestobanana; November 10th, 2016 at 23:52..
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Old November 11th, 2016, 01:03   #45
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Originally Posted by pestobanana View Post
If you want to come off as more intelligent, you really need to fix your spelling, it is honestly painful. Should also work on your word choice. You honestly sound like a high school kid regurgitating often incorrect information that was digested from Wikipedia and forum posts. I'm no night vision expert, but I'm not going to pretend to be because I've read shit on my computer.

For pricing, I think you should listen to Steve. He has FAR more experience than you.

Contract specs are MINIMUM specs. Not average specs, MINIMUM. Contract tubes are guaranteed to be above those specs. Tubes that do not meet those specs are not delivered under that contract. They are also not "advertised" as OMNI whatever, they will have the tube model and contract number engraved on the tube housing - delivered under an OMNI contract. Just because one OMNI contract had higher specs than another doesn't mean one is necessarily better than the other. You can view it be removing the ocular lens, or putting the lens in light and looking in sideways.

That chart is a good reference, however it is not entirely correct. I have a MX-10160C. The contract number is DAAB07-02-C-J008 and according to the table is OMNI IV, but it is actually OMNI VI.

Not all OMNI VII and VIII tubes are Pinnacle nor filmless tubes. OMNI VIII was not incorrectly referred to as Gen 4, filmless is sometimes referred to as Gen 4 and OMNI VII replaced Gen 4. OMNI VIII specs are actually lower than VII because the specs were too high and production goals were not being met.

Auto gating does NOT completely negate damage from high light. It limits/reduces it. You can still burn out an auto gated tube. If I recall, the purpose of auto gating was to improve performance under dynamic lighting conditions/reduce bloom, for filmless tubes it prevents damage from ion poisoning.
Im aware my spelling is terrible, I however did forget this was the internet, thank you for reminding me in the most "internetly" possible way.

Im not disputing steves pricing, im simply saying that typically if you compare a set of identical tubes one with autogating, and one without the autogated tube is typically 400-600$ and if you find places that offer autogating as an option is is typically in the 400-600$ price range.

Almost all of the pvs-14s currently on ASC are being advertised by there contracts...

Additionally, im fully aware that contracts tubes must pass a minimum spec, that chart as you have so keenly noticed is not the minimum specs for specific contracts so it actually may serve as a rough average or rough baseline for said contracts, which is why I stated that, the context is key.

yes your right omni VIII was not incorrectly reffered to as gen 4 by manufactures, but often is mistaken for gen 4 by the average consumer, which is what I was implying.

I cant dispute your last point, autogating is not a gaurentee of durability of a tube when exposed to large amounts of light BUT it does completely negate the difference in fragility between newer more fragile tubes and older more robust tubes (in terms of damage from bright light), in my context again it makes sense.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderCactus View Post
I think that's the direction I should have gone with this one though.
gen1 - I can't see shit
gen2 - I see LOTS of green, but not many people
gen3 - Nobody wants to play with me because I'm an elitist asshole now

Last edited by BenG; November 11th, 2016 at 01:29..
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