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Old August 5th, 2004, 11:21   #1
Nocturnal
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Post FAS - TECHNICAL REFERENCE For Upgrading & Modifications

*MODERATOR EDIT* This post has been edited to exclude information that is not applicable to those of us in Canada. I have however, left all links intact for the truly curious.

Posted here are collections of technical information from previous forum threads (FAS/AGL) and general facts from experienced veteran gunsmiths and players.


====================
- - Technical Reference Info - - (by skipperooo)
====================


SPRINGS: (Approx. Settled Spring FPS on .20gBB)
Stock Gun (brand new gun) = 270-290 FPS

CQB Gun: M100 / SP100 / PDI120% = 330-350 FPS - Typical indoor field maximum permitted.

Standard Field Gun: M120 / SP120 / PDI170% = 390-420 FPS [.20gBB stable] - Typical outdoor field maximum permitted. Anything stronger usually requires organizers permission.

Spring Power Chart http://www.airsoftcanada.com/SpringChart.html
BB goes wild = BB too light -- BB range seems near = BB too heavy

*NOTE* These indications are FAS FPS Regulations and are NOT ASC FPS Regulations.

- - - - -

GEARS: (Does NOT affect Gun FPS, only ROF)
Infinite=(1) Ultra=(2) SuperTorqueUp=(3) TorqueUp=(4) StockRatio=(5) FastGear=(6)

>> Numbers indicate "car-gear-shift". *Small batts (non Sub-C) DOWNSHIFT to next LOWER gear. <<

Common Gear-to-Spring Setup for Big Batt (engine) (Sub-C):

Fast Gears (6) - UP TO M100 / SP100 / PDI120%

Stock Gears (5) can 'safely' handle up to M130, SP130, PDI190% <<<< on 9.6v 1700mAh(min)

Torque Up Gears (4) - M130 / SP130 / PDI190%-210% or LOWER

Torque Up Gears OR Super Torque Up (4/3) - M140 / SP140 / PDI240%

Ultra Torque Up Gears (2) - M150 / SP150 / PDI270%

Ultra or Infinite Gears (2/1) - M160 / SP160 << Needs minor machining to fit on Ver.2 GearBox

Infinite Torque Up Gears (1) - M170 / SP170 << Needs minor machining to fit on Ver.2 GearBox

*Some Gear set won't fit on some reinforced Gearbox- PLEASE CHECK first before you get one.

*No known machining on stock ver.3 GearBox to fit any gear set.
*AVOID using Bearing Bushings on M120 above. only for soft springs

M130 / SP130 / PDI190%-PDI210% on STOCK Gears will last Approx. 5-10 months (depends on use)
Stock Gears - Low Cost, nice ROF. will not last long. (cast alloy)
Flat Gears - Noisier, Cheaper. More durable (steel)
Helical Gears - Silent. Expensive. shimming sensitive (steel) <<Avoid pairing w/ Bearing Bushings

- - - - -

BATTERY: (Does NOT affect Gun FPS, only ROF and Rounds of fire)
Voltage = Rate of Fire (ROF) mAh = BB-Rounds (Power/Stamina)

BIG INTERNAL Standard Battery Size [Ni-CAD]:
M4A1 - 9.6v 1700mAh (Fat-long AA) V-Type 12v 1700mAh(max)

M4A1 Patriot - 12v 1700mah (Fat-long AA) Circular config

G36C - 9.6v 1500mAh (Fat AA)

M733 - 9.6v 1500mAh (Fat AA) Chako-Type 12v 1700mAh(max)

AK 47/Spetz - 10.4 2400mAh (Sub-C) 12v(max)

M16A1/A2/VN/SR16 - 9.6v 2400mAh (Sub-C) 13.2v(max)

CAR15 - 8.4v 600mAh (Small) 1500mAh (max) (Fat AA) 2-separates

P90 - 9.6v 1700mAh (Fat-long AA) J-Type

G3A3,G3SG1,MP5A4,MP5SD5 - 9.6v 2400mAh (Sub-C) Straight

MP5SD6 - 9.6v 1500mAh (Fat AA) V-type

MP5A5 - 9.6v 1100mAh (Slim) Chako-Type << (?)

Steyr AUG - 9.6v 1700mAh (Fat-long AA) Box-Type

PSG-1 10.8v 1500mAh (Fat AA) 13.2v(max)

M16 Dummy/Ready MAG - 9pcs 10.8v 1700mAh (Fat-long AA)

AN/PEQ 2 Dummy Laser Box - 9.6v 1700mAh (w/laser) 12v 1700mAh(max)



Approx. Battery-to-Rounds Capacity: [NiCd] (on M120 Stock Gears, EG1000)

9.6v 600mAh = <500 rounds (Small) Sanyo KR600AE 9.5mOhm Internal Resistance

9.6v 1100mAh = 1,000 rounds (Slim) Sanyo KR1100AAU 19mOhm Internal Resistance

9.6v 1500mAh = 1,400 rounds (Fat AA) Sanyo KR1500AUL 16mOhm Internal Resistance

9.6v 1700mAh = 1,800 rounds (Fat-long AA) Sanyo KR1700AU 17mOhm Int. Resistance

9.6v 1900mAh = 2,400 rounds (Sub-C) Sanyo N-1900SCR 4mOhm Internal Resistance

9.6v 2000mAh = 2,600 rounds (Sub-C) Sanyo KR-CH 6.5mOhm Internal Resistance

9.6v 2400mAh = 3,100 rounds (Sub-C) Sanyo CP-2400SCR 4.5mOhm Internal Resistance

9.6v 3000mAh = 3,800 rounds (Sub-C) Sanyo HR-SCU [Ni-MH] 5.3mOhm Internal Resistance

*can someone confirm this rounds guesstimation--
BEST BUY: 9.6v 1700mAh(small-type) 9.6v 2400mAh(large-type)


Approx. CHARGING Time on 1000mAh Output Charger:
600mAh = 36mins(min) 42mins(std) 48mins(max)
1100mAh = 1hr 6mins(min) 1hr 19mins(std) 1hr 30mins(max)
1500mAh = 1hr 20mins(min) 1hr 48mins(std) 2hrs 7mins(max)
1700mAh = 1hr 42mins(min) 2hrs(standard) 2hrs 24mins(max)
1900mAh = 1hr 53mins(min) 2hrs 18mins(std) 2hrs 43mins(max)
2000mAh = 2hours(minimum) 2hrs 24mins(std) 2hrs 48mins(max)
2400mAh = 2hrs 23mins(min) 2hrs 54mins(std) 3hrs24mins(max)
3000mAh = 3hours(min) 3hrs 37mins(std) 4hrs 13mins(max)
*Charger should be 1 to 3 volts higher voltage than total battery voltage
Go over to http://digibattery.com for more battery-charging-time calculations
DISCHARGING: Number of batteries in a Pack = Max discharge volts.
(ex. 9.6v = 8cells in a pack = 8.0v is the maximum discharged voltage)

- - - - -

PISTON: Depends on your spring and trigger abuse.
M140 Above = Aluminum Piston (for ratatat players)
. Choice1: ICS Aluminum Piston
. Choice2: Systema Aluminum Piston
*if compatible, get the half-tooth to lessen the weight
M140 Below = Polycarbonate Piston
. Choice1: Guarder Polycarb Piston (blue)
. Choice2: Tokyo Marui Stock Piston (white) <-- polycarbonate too
. Choice3: Systema Polycarb Piston (black) << brittle bad choice
AVOID the RED PISTON-Systema Polycarb (defective) there's a newer version
*haven't tried the TGS(blue), TOP or Prometheus Hard Pistons yet, but it looks promising <-- pls review
*some use polycarbs on m140 above but with trigger care

- - - - -

CYLINDER: (cylinderVolume-to-barrel-ratio) 2 is to 1 (standard)
Marui Stock Cylinders:

1. Closed Cylinder = 27.1cc 450mm(min) 580mm(max) barrel length

2. XM Cylinder = "4/5 hole" = 364mm(min) 460mm(max) barrel length

3. M4 Cylinder = "3/4 hole" aka Type-2 17cc - 229mm(min) 430mm(max) barrel length

4. MP5K Cylinder = "mid hole" 9cc 110mm(min) 170mm(max) barrel length


Systema NB Standard and BoreUp Parts:

1. Type-0 Cylinder (closed) fits M16-A1,VN,A2,G3-A4,SG1,SIG550,AUG

2. Type-1 Cylinder (tip hole) for XM177, M4, AK47, AK47S, SIG551

3. Type-2 Cylinder (XM hole) for MP5-A4,A5,SD5,SD6, MC51,SIG552

4. Type-3 Cylinder (M4 "3/4" hole) for MP5 PDW

5. Type-4 Cylinder (MP5K mid hole) for MP5K
*BoreUp Closed 29.4cc = 500mm(min) 600mm(max) barrel length

- - - - -

KM Cylinder Parts:

*Intercept Cylinder 59 barrel length from 450mm to 590mm (Type 0)
*Intercept Cylinder 45 barrel length from 250mm to 450mm (Type 2)
*Intercept Cylinder 25 barrel length from 100mm to 250mm (Mid-hole)

*To avoid confusion, don't mix brand model names, just model equivalence
*TM M733 by stock is closed cylinder (Type 0) -over ratio

- - - - -

RATIO Guide:
Standard-Efficient Ratio is 1.5 is to 1
2-2.5 : 1 for springs up to M130 --- 2.5-3.0 : 1 for strong springs M140 -> UP
<needs further research>

- - - - -

BARREL: (inner barrel length)

650mm/25.59in PSG-1 (extended)

595mm/23.42in APS2 OR

589mm/23.18in PSG-1

550mm/21.65in M16A1/VN/A2,AUG (extended)

534mm/21.02in Sig550

509mm/20.03in M16A1/VN/A2,AUG

472mm/18.58in Famas SV/F1

469mm/18.46in G3-A3/A4,SG1

455mm/17.91in AK47,AK47s

444mm/17.48in M60

407mm/16.02in M4A1 M653E2 (extended)

395mm/15.55in APS2 SV

369mm/14.52in HK51

363mm/14.29in M4A1,RIS,SR-16,XM177ED,Sig551

300mm/11.81in M1A1,AKBetaSpetz, M733

285mm/11.22in MC51

247mm/9.72in Car15,P90,G36C, SIG552

245mm/9.64in UZI - 400mm/15.74in (extended)

229mm/9.01in MP5A5/A4/SD5/SD6

170mm/6.69in MP5K-PDW (extended)

141mm/5.55in MP5K-PDW

110mm/4.33in MP5K

- - - - -

MOTORS:

TM EG560 (famas)

TM EG700 (need more spec info)

TM EG1000 27,552rpm 1,407.00G.cm Torque

Systema "Genuine" 29,825rpm 1,6999.83G.cm Torque

Systema "Hi-Speed" 37,400rpm 1,915.99G.cm Torque

Systema "Hi-Torque" 32,302rpm 1,932.49G.cm Torque

Systema "Super Hi-Torque" 34,787rpm 1,998.47G.cm Torque

Eagle Force Hummer 1100 (high-speed)

Eagle Force Hummer 1300 (super-high-speed)

- - - - -

GAS: (for gas guns/pistols)

Duster = The little cans you buy at Future Shop

Green Gas = Propane

RED Gas = a bit higher pressure (?) than TOP Gas

BLACK Gas = highest pressure for airsoft <carbon<myth?

*pressures on 30C / 86F manila temp. / gas expansion speed differs from each type of gas

- - - - -

TM Gearbox Versions:

Version 1: FA-MAS F1, FA-MAS SV

Version 2: -M4A1, M4A1 RIS, M16A2, SR16, M16A1 VN, M16A1, XM177E2, CAR15, MP5A4, MP5A5, MP5 SD6, MP5 SD5, MC51, G3A3, G3A4, G3SG1, HK51

Version 3: AK47, AK47s, AK 47 Spetz, AUG Civ, AUG Mil, MP5K A4, MP5K PDW, SG550, SG551, SG552, G36C

Version 4: PSG1

Version 5: UZI

Version 6: P90, P90 TR, Thompson


- - - - -

*Disclaimer: This information has been taken straight from the FAS Forums and posted HERE for technical reference to help understand upgrades and modifications done to Airsoft Guns. Some Information may be modified for better understanding or for updating purposes. Please advise that upgrades and modifications are done at your own risk and it is recommended that you consult local professional gun smiths if possible.

- - - - -

- - - - -

Thank You and Enjoy Reading.
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Last edited by Nocturnal; October 27th, 2010 at 01:32..
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Old August 5th, 2004, 15:37   #2
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thanks a lot for that, the shimming tutorial was pretty helpful
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Old August 6th, 2004, 06:00   #3
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Yeh, i hope those who may need this information find this usful please provide your feedback to keep this thread updated and generate more interest for new players to take the time to understand some of the information provided.

Thanks,
Noc
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Old August 29th, 2004, 12:35   #4
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http://www.airsoftplayers.com/mechbox/tutorial.asp

Here's a good guide I used the other day. Gear-timing.
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Old December 13th, 2004, 18:41   #5
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Old May 28th, 2005, 08:12   #6
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can anyone confirm the inner barrel length on the AK Beta Spetz being 300mm
or if that's a misprint?
I've seen sales sites saying it's 229mm like the mp5s
I forgot to check last time I had mine open but I think it's the same as the mp5s

and free bump for any new guys or gals doing research
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Old June 22nd, 2005, 13:22   #7
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Very informative. Excellent!
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Old June 29th, 2005, 03:59   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by concept_8
can anyone confirm the inner barrel length on the AK Beta Spetz being 300mm
or if that's a misprint?
I've seen sales sites saying it's 229mm like the mp5s
I forgot to check last time I had mine open but I think it's the same as the mp5s

and free bump for any new guys or gals doing research
Not sure if this is too late, but i have my inner barrel out of my AK47 Beta Spetznaz and its 229mm give or take a milimetre.
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Old November 27th, 2005, 02:21   #9
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ok for the battery charge time at 1000 mah output is that on fast or slow charge ?
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Old November 27th, 2005, 05:54   #10
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it does say on 1000ma output (1A). this is neither fast nor slow. it's 1 Amp output.

bascially a 16 hour charger is around 60ma output give or take from memory. A fast charger with a mini 600mha battery pack has an output of 1.8A and will charrge a pack in about 15 - 20 minutes depending on the condition of the pack.

technically the highest safe charge rate is 3C for NiCad (C = capasity of pack) so for a 600mAh mini pack that is 3 * 600 = 1800ma (1.8A)

if you have a large NiCad pack rated for say 2400mAh then the max safe charge rate is 3 * 2400 = 7200ma (7.2A)

NiMH packs shoudl only be charged at a max of 1C so a 1100mAh NiMH pack shoudl be charged at 1 * 1100 = 1100ma (1.1A) the peak charger will shut off automatically when peak voltage is acheived.
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Old November 27th, 2005, 15:50   #11
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thats good info thx , but my charger explains that for a NIMH 3000 mah battery to select a charge current less then 5A meaning i could charge at 4 ?

so im mixed up with your advice and the one from the company ... i take it the smart move is to go with a charge rate of 1c ? meaning 3a ? logicaly that should take an hour to charge compelty...

where im mixed up though is that on my charger since for example 5a is selected for a output current i can select either fast or slow on that same current so your statment doesnt hold true ...

i have to options for a 5000mA current output fast or slow.. when you replied :

"it does say on 1000ma output (1A). this is neither fast nor slow. it's 1 Amp output."
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Old November 27th, 2005, 18:42   #12
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i guess it depends on the features set of yoru charger. I remember reading long loing time ago in a galexy far far away that there are chargers that are timed such that they charge full current for say 5 minutes then go into a lower current mode for 5 minutes, so on and so forth .. the idea being as to not overheat the battery pack. it's possible your charger implements something along this line. without knowing the make and model or being able to read the manual for your charger I am unsure what they mean by fast/slow.

useually when it's mentioned, fast charge is 1C or greater (1 hour or less charge time) while slow charge is a trickle charge typically around 1/16C so the pack is charged in about 16 hours.

you are correct that for NiMH packs you need to charge at 5A or less ... specifically in your case a max of 3A as I have said in my last post
"NiMH packs shoudl only be charged at a max of 1C so a 1100mAh NiMH pack shoudl be charged at 1 * 1100 = 1100ma (1.1A) the peak charger will shut off automatically when peak voltage is acheived."

NiMH packs cannot safely be charged higher then 1C without damage or the possibility of damage to the pack such that it's life cycle and performance will degrade.
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Old November 30th, 2005, 02:59   #13
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Sorry to tell you your wrong... but Ni-mh mini pack (ak 2/3 AA cells) can be charged up to 2amps. I race with some R/C cars, an I work in an hobbyshop, so this is my job.... a 600mAh pack should not be charged above 1.5-1.8 amps.... I charge my 1100 mAh packs at 2 amps no prob.... and big packs (ak sub-c cells) can be SAFELLY charged up to 3 amps.. I do speed charge my pack on 5amps, but I use cooling fans and only do it in emergency cases (ie I have to race in 10 min)....

I'm always talking about Ni-Mh packs. Ni-Cd pack are slingtly different, but since I don't use them quite offen I can't say...

There is also an other type of battries that could be used in guns.... Li-Po packs... these are 11.4V, but they take the space of 5 "small pack cells", and are around 1200-1500 mAh in capacity... They do require a special charger though, and cannot be charged above 1C (or they burst in flame)

Don't take me wrong... I don't want to say that you don't know what you say, but here is what I know in both theory and pratice...
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Old January 6th, 2006, 23:27   #14
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not to argue with you .. but to set the facts straight.

I did say the word "should" as in to mean this is not a law or a set in stone rule but a guideline becuase different manufactures offer different specs. Case in point, here is the spec sheet to GP nimh 2/3AA cells which are rated for 750mAh datasheet

and I quote
Quote:
Charging Condition : 75 mA for 16 hrs at 20oC

Fast Charge : 375 mA to 750 mA (0.5 to 1C)

charge termination control recommended
control parameters:
these are not made up number that I randomly picked out of my head. they are correct and accurate specs based on the manufacture spec sheet. Sorry to say that I personally think the people who build batteries know more then you or myself for that matter on this subject. Take special note that the fast charge current is 0.5C to 1C ... not double that as you like to do with your cells. Perhaps your cells are specifically designed for high current charging, but 1C maximum is the recomended suggestion for all general nimh batteries unless you have the spec sheet to say otherwise.

"I do speed charge my pack on 5amps, but I use cooling fans and only do it in emergency cases " this is a very bad idea unless you know what your doing (in that case why are you reading this) as this will guarentee that damage will occure to your batteries. Manufactures put out specs for a reason and if you go beyond those specs damage will happen, might not be much, might not be until you continue this action for several charge cycles but he fact remains that damage WILL occure. The average airsoft person gains very little in charging their pack under yoru advice where as your experiance is with R/C racing, where the cost of a new battery pack is negligable when you could win a race. Airsoft games do not generally compensate players who bake their packs to gain a few minutes of charging time or a slightly higher rate of fire.

I'm not trying to be rude or start a flame war .. just to set the facts straight for the less knowledgeable/experianced people reading this that may not know how to verrify the information I have given.
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Old June 8th, 2006, 09:17   #15
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Stock Gears (5) can 'safely' handle up to M130, SP130, PDI190% <<<< on 9.6v 1700mAh(min)

By stock gears, do you mean stock marui gears or stock systema gears?

Is there anyone that can confirm using stock marui gears with an M120 or M130 springs?

Greetz
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