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nvg for indoor cqb?

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Old July 7th, 2017, 20:28   #1
kudougw
 
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nvg for indoor cqb?

Hi Guys,
I need your help on NVG, I have noticed the indoor area I play has those infrared cameras installed, and they host low/no light games every once in a while, I really dont want to spend 3K+ for a gen 3 which I will probably only use 20 minutes/month, do you guys think a good Gen1 or Gen2 would be enough? what are your recommendations?


thanks
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Old July 7th, 2017, 21:56   #2
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Gen 1 is useless, you're better off with a flashlight
Gen 2 is next to useless, you're better off saving your money
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Old July 7th, 2017, 22:44   #3
kudougw
 
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so go gen3 or go home? I thought some of the Gen2+ are decent, and since there will be plenty of infrared around, gen2s are still worthless?
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Old July 7th, 2017, 23:18   #4
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Top end Gen 2 (gen 2 +) will run anywhere from $2200 - $5000 and are on par with lower end gen 3 according to this thread
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Old July 7th, 2017, 23:20   #5
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another thread here
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Old July 7th, 2017, 23:23   #6
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If you plan on using it for indoors you will need a gen 3 unit to not need IR illumination. Even top end gen 2+ units will need IR illumination indoors as they lack the gain of a gen 3 unit. I personally own an XR-5 tube from photonis which is an extremely high end gen 2+ tube and when using it indoors i'm almost better off using natural night vision since its gain is about half that of a good gen 3 monocular.
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Old July 8th, 2017, 01:30   #7
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Cheap Gen 2 will give you a bit of an edge over guys that are clueless with flashlight use and do not run anything equivalent or better, unless you get a high end Gen 2 which will end up costing almost as much as Gen 3.

Unless you have 3k+, just use a flashlight.
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Last edited by pestobanana; July 8th, 2017 at 11:52..
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Old July 8th, 2017, 02:42   #8
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Top end Gen 2 technology competes directly with Gen 3. Generation denotes the architecture of the tube, not the spec/performance of the tube. If that was the case, Filmless tubes would be like Gen 8.
For example: Photonis 4G tubes use Gen 2 architecture, however they directly compete with high end Gen 3 tubes.

Gen 2 will do you just fine in Airsoft.. especially more modern Gen 2 type devices which will give you more bang for your buck. Due to Canada's current poor economic state however, and the fact that we don't really manufacturer Night vision equipment domestically.. you will be paying an extremely high premium right now for something made elsewhere. Considering you stated that you don't want to spend a lot of money on a device you will probably only use for 20 minutes a month, it sounds like you have already thought this through and could easily just get by with a very reliable weapon light. Hope that helps.

I didn't bother mentioning Gen 1 because it is so beyond deprecated that it is now completely useless.
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Old July 8th, 2017, 12:38   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c3sk View Post
For example: Photonis 4G tubes use Gen 2 architecture, however they directly compete with high end Gen 3 tubes.
Case and Point:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pyd-LXPTUg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQ2zZhiWdds

Those 4G's are hella' expensive...
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Old July 8th, 2017, 13:04   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyG View Post
Yea, any high end tube is going to be super expensive, and depending on the individual it may be cost prohibitive. A very good friend of mine runs a pair of extremely early omni 3/4 "beater" night vision tubes for his Bino set, and he absolutely slays in Airsoft against folk with ridiculously high spec tubes. You can very easily get into the game at a low price entry point and have fun being able to Airsoft in the dark without a flash light.

Sadly this is by far the worst time to invest in NVG's for the reasons already stated. The best time being when our dollar was on par with EURO/USD.
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Old July 8th, 2017, 14:06   #11
kudougw
 
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thank you guys so much for the enlightenment.
i forgot to mention that the field has IR illumination from those security cameras, will gen 2 pick those IR up? or will I need separate light source?
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Old July 8th, 2017, 14:13   #12
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Those IR cameras are REALLY bright. Each one is like a 200watt bulb under NV.
Gen2 will be FINE for shooting people 40ft away in a very well IR illuminated area. I've done it myself, in fact. And you don't even need good gen2, a low to mid range $1200-$1500 model would work great.

gen1 is hard to walk around with, even in a well illuminated environment. And their peak spectrum just barely reaches into the IR range, so some IR lights won't give you very much illumination at all.
gen3 is greatly overkill and overall non-advantageous over gen2 indoors. In areas where they don't have cameras it's going to be pitch black if they don't have any lights on. Gen3 isn't going to be any advantage over gen2 when there's 0 light to amplify, and so both units are going to need to use an IR light anyway. The IR light from the cameras will create shadows, and both gens will have trouble seeing into shadows.

We used to run games like this at force on force up in edmonton. They'd leave 1 light on in the middle, and everything else was either pitch black or lit up by IR cameras. Gen3 really had 0 advantage over gen2 when you're using it in an artificially illuminated CQB environment to shoot people 10-50ft away.
Gen3 is a huge advantage over gen2 when you're OUTSIDE and have to make full use of whatever fleeting amount of IR light is still available. But when the IR light is in plentiful supply, you really don't need to spend the extra $2000 to help see it.

The higher end models of either gen2 or gen3 will have higher photosensitivity, making better and broader use of the light spectrum, and higher resolution and higher signal to noise ratios, which will produce a more clear and crisp image. Both of those things help a lot outside when you're trying to see past 100ft in the dead of night, but indoors it's really just for bragging rights.
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Old July 8th, 2017, 14:17   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kudougw View Post
thank you guys so much for the enlightenment.
i forgot to mention that the field has IR illumination from those security cameras, will gen 2 pick those IR up? or will I need separate light source?
Will definitely pick those up. Should be more than enough IR lighting there.
You may need a separate light source when going into a structure on that field, which can just be a weapon light, white light based + a monocular would probably give you the best transition results.
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Old July 8th, 2017, 16:11   #14
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gen 1 is totaly useless, it fishbowls, and has such low sensitivity, that depending on the wavelength the cameras are giving off you might not even be able to see it. Oddly enough for your purposes the AABB pvs-14 thingy that is sold by lots of airsoft places for around 400$ would actually work rather well because it uses the exact same principle that those cameras use to work, BUT if you plan to use your NV outside at all, you "have to" go gen 2 or 3.

Saying gen 2 is useless is a bit of an overstatement, is it anywhere near as good as gen 3? not a chance BUT it is still more then adequate for your average airsofter, although because of the quantity of high end gen 3 units in ontario you will be outclassed, in a NV to NV battle. The newer gen 2 units from photonis are actually being produced with higher minimum specs then gen 3 units HOWEVER, the major difference in gen 2 and 3 is in photocathode sensitivity. gen 3 can produce a much much brighter image with darker skis because the gallium arsenide used in the photocathod responds MUCH better to longer wavelengths of light. Basicly what this boils down to, is with gen 3 youll still be able to have a bright image that may or may not be noisy depending on your SNR in the pitch black and see stuff, with gen 2 youll have a very dark image that may or may not be noisy depending on your SNR, and this results in it being significantly harder to use but it is still useable, and can be easily used if you use an IR weapon light, gives your position away to other gen 2/3 users when you flash it, but they can probably see you anyway so lol.

The hardest thing for people to understand about gen 2 vs gen 3 is that the major difference lies in sensitivity not in gain, if both tubes have say 30 000 gain, and are looking at a scene at say 11pm that is refracting 10% visible light, 70% 700-850nm light 10% 850-950nm light and 20% heat both units will produce a similar image, however say we observe the same scene at 2 am, there is no moon, just some star light, the same scene will have say 5% visible light 20% 700-850nm light and 70% 850-950nm light and the rest of the EMR being heat, the gen 3 will have a massivly better image because the gallium asenide is much more responsive to that longer wavelength light. If the tube cant turn the photons into electrons, it cant multiply the luminescence in the scene. Someone had a great graph that showed the photocathode response of gen 1, 2 and 3 to increasing wavelengths of light, were is it!

One final thing, having used gen 1 gen 2 and gen 3 devices at many games, gen 3 really really does outclass gen 2, even with plenty of light, because of other tube parameters, that said i own gen 2 because university is very very expensive

gen 1: I think thats maybe a hill over there or it could be a stump or just a shadow I have no idea
gen 2: thats a hill over there with maybe 3 people on it
gen 3: thats a hill over there with 3 people on it one is picking his nose, the other blinked, and the others leg is twitching

or see thundercactuses version in my quote
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderCactus View Post
I think that's the direction I should have gone with this one though.
gen1 - I can't see shit
gen2 - I see LOTS of green, but not many people
gen3 - Nobody wants to play with me because I'm an elitist asshole now

Last edited by BenG; July 8th, 2017 at 16:59..
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Old July 8th, 2017, 16:54   #15
kudougw
 
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what would be the best bang for the buck gen2 nvg? since I dont plan to use it outside at all, Ima try gen2s, maybe i will evantually move up to the gen3s once I start to play outside abit more.
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