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FCC 416D: From the Outside In

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Old June 29th, 2013, 23:16   #91
mcguyver
 
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I have another 416 enroute to me now, it is from the same batch as mine, and is also a torque version. I got the OK to tear it down completely and see what it is all about.

I did notice though when both gearboxes were open, the bevel and sun gearin the FCC did not sit solid, but would wobble. The Systema would not. That tells me that the gears did not sit precisely in a precise hole, and the lateral movement that ensued under load accelerated gear wear.
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Old June 30th, 2013, 01:03   #92
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Maybe they're drilling all their holes with regular chisel point HSS jobber drills? lol
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Old June 30th, 2013, 08:21   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcguyver View Post
I have another 416 enroute to me now, it is from the same batch as mine, and is also a torque version. I got the OK to tear it down completely and see what it is all about.

I did notice though when both gearboxes were open, the bevel and sun gearin the FCC did not sit solid, but would wobble. The Systema would not. That tells me that the gears did not sit precisely in a precise hole, and the lateral movement that ensued under load accelerated gear wear.
Perhaps someone needs to let you look at one that wasn't part of your batch.
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Old June 30th, 2013, 10:28   #94
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Perhaps someone needs to let you look at one that wasn't part of your batch.
There aren't that many out there, and I think that of the ones that arrived this year, all are part of that batch. The race gun was different obviously, and in hindsight perhaps I should have torn that gearbox down. I did not expect to find what I did with the 416 gearbox.
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Old June 30th, 2013, 11:07   #95
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True. Looking at a bunch from the same lot is like looking at all the Toyotas with sticky gas peddles and denouncing them all as shit haha.
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Old July 13th, 2013, 10:02   #96
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Well, I have finally gotten down to looking at another 416D. This one is also a torque version, so it has the same gearbox ratio as mine. It is also from the same lot as mine, ordered at the same time and delivered at the same time from the same retailer, Double Tap.

Immediately upon arrival, I picked up the gun. The floppy gas piston is present in this one as well.

http://imageshack.us/clip/my-videos/...bitcwimvy.mp4/


The issue here is purely one of QC, and only a blind monkey with no thumbs could have missed this at the factory.

Here, you see the spring that keeps tension on the piston and guides, to keep it from flopping around. Please note the that the spring does not sit in the guide. The gap you see + the depth of the guide = the distance the piston flops around. Unacceptable.



The solution is to remove the rail, remove the piston assembly and stretch the spring. Why was this not done at the factory? This is how it should look. It was a simple fix, it is cosmetic only, but the result is a noisy rail section.



This particular gun also had a complaint of a poor hopup. The owner complained about terrible range, and I confirmed that with lobbing I could get the BB to travel 100 feet with the hopup fully engaged. The problem is the same as before, the adjuster cage is utterly useless. The cage was openned up due to no glue on the adjuster pin, the roller was a hard rubber that spins on the pin, and the spring does not offer enough tension. If you were trying to build the worst hopup possible in a TW, this is what you would do. After many years of modified hopups being available, any company with any sort of R&D would look at those and at least attempt to incorporate those designs into a gun claiming to be a superior option to Systema. FCC has not done this, and I have no idea why they would build a gun today with a hopup Systema designed and quickly discarded 10 years ago. This offering from FCC is a copy of Systema's Gen 1 hopup.



Please note the poor fit on the adjuster cage to the inner barrel. Even though the hopup was inneffective, had the adjuster rubber been better, the resulot would have still been wildly inconsistant shots as the cage flopped from side to side. What more can I say?

When I looked now at the lower, I noticed a couple of things. The buffer tube was threaded in one more turn, so no shims present. A stark difference from mine. The buffer cap was the same, it was replaced with a Systema buffer cap, and one shim added to fit the receivers properly.

When I looked into the lower receiver though, I saw this:



The rear gearbox fixing screw was fully undone. The wear on the screw is from the receiver hitting it. My first reaction was WTF, is the threading bad on the receiver like a kit I had done earlier? No, it simply was not tightened up. Whatever. But that lead me to wonder why. So, with the permission of the owner, I decided to remove the gearbox. The reason I asked for permission is because FCC has put seals on their gearboxes. I have dealt with this issue before in my job, as openning seals usually results in voiding warranties without permission, but it would appear I am not first up in this gang-bang:



Who openned this gearbox before me is unknown. Not that is matters to me, as long as everything is OK. Well.................



Metal shavings everywhere.



Again.



Extreme gear wear.



More metal shavings.



That awesome gear lash I have come to love. Now, this gearbox has not actually failed, but failure is immenent. Mine lasted about 8000 rounds until it failed, and by failed, I mean it failed to cycle and pull a piston under load, the gears would grind. This box had perhaps 1/4 of the round count of mine, and I would be surprised if it made it as far mine. So, the decision was made to pull it for return to FCC.
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Last edited by mcguyver; July 13th, 2013 at 10:37..
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Old July 13th, 2013, 10:22   #97
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Now, I have informed Chris about my gearbox failure before he left from holidays, and I was told that he would get FCC to send me a replacement. I was told yesterday that this gearbox would need to be returned to FCC and they will determine repair or replacement. Now, it is warranty, and they have that right to repair or replace at their discretion.

However, I have seen this gearbox, and as of yet I am not convinced that it can be repaired. If the gearbox shell is good, meaning the holes for bearings and bushings are precise, then the issue is gear dimensions. Without knowledge of the allowable tolerances involved here, and what FCC has done, I can not comment more on this. It could be simply bad gears. It may also be no fault of the gears themselves, the problem may reside in the gearbox shell. Either possibility leads to damage and a dead gearbox. To further add issues, it may be both, and replacing gears when the problen is also the shell is not solving the problem, and future failure is assured, albeit out of warranty, to bad, so sad.

So, my gearbox and the latest one will be returned to the factory for assessment, repair and/or replacement. How long will this take? Weeks? Months? Never? At any rate, my gun went down June 23rd, I informed Chris the next day, and he moved on it promptly. However, it is now July 13, and my gun will be down until a functional gearbox arrives in my hands. With time allowed for shipping, I think it is safe to say that I will not see it functional again until well into August, but most likely later.

Warranty is nice, but in airsoft if you offer one it must be over the counter exchange, not send to HK for review. I really hate to play Captain Obvious here, but in the world of PTW, my word carries weight, people listen to what I say because I have the technical ability to wring every last ounce of performance out of these platforms. I have also spent many a night fixing everything in these guns from the mundane to the shocking. I have given a harsh review of their products, but it has been a fair assessment and I can back it up with my skill and lots of photos. If there was anyone FCC should be pleasing here, it should be me. Unless they are hoping that it is the silent and grumbling masses who won't complain about their product, while they write guys like me off as being too picky and not worth their time to court with a formal statement or even simply just replacement parts.

I have had to deal with warranty issues for decades now, and our company service when an issue like this arises is to fix the problem RFN, and worry about warranty assessments later on our time, not the customers. FCC may chose to warranty my gearbox or not, but it will happen on my time, not theirs, and the result is a $2920 wall hanger until it does.

If anyone is looking at FCC and wondering about warranty, be it customers or retailers, this is what it is. And still, after two months, FCC has not responded, nor has any of their retailers. In fact, one has been ordered not to respond here. The obvious question is why. The answer, unfortunately, is equally obvious.
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Last edited by mcguyver; July 13th, 2013 at 10:28..
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Old July 15th, 2013, 10:44   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcguyver View Post
it would appear I am not first up in this gang-bang

Sigged.


Brad, the bearing on the sector gear what is the gunk from about 230 to 6oclock? I would assume it's some kind of lubricant but it actually looks like rust in your picture.

I am not a machinist but the wear on the gears leads me to believe

1) Substandard materials used in manufacturing of gears
2) Gears are not made to spec
3) Bearing/axle holes in gearbox shell are not correctly placed which is common for from China AEG "CNC" aluminium gearbox shells

I haven't opened and tinkered enough on the TW platform yet but my money is on #3.
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it would appear I am not first up in this gang-bang
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Old July 15th, 2013, 20:38   #99
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Originally Posted by mcguyver View Post
If anyone is looking at FCC and wondering about warranty, be it customers or retailers, this is what it is. And still, after two months, FCC has not responded, nor has any of their retailers. In fact, one has been ordered not to respond here. The obvious question is why. The answer, unfortunately, is equally obvious.
Brad , I'm not surprise they drag their heels on their warranty, you bit the hand that feed you on this -No offence but if you take a step back. How would your CS be towards someone who critisize you to no end?
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Old July 15th, 2013, 20:55   #100
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Brad , I'm not surprise they drag their heels on their warranty, you bit the hand that feed you on this -No offence but if you take a step back. How would your CS be towards someone who critisize you to no end?
What do you think would go farther for customer support:

1) Give a vocal customer service

2) Don't give them service

FCC has said absolutely nothing since the emails I have received and posted above. Absolutely nothing. Their eastern Canadian retailer has been ordered by them not to respond here.

At this point, the ball is in their court. It always has been. Do you think my voice on this matter will diminish of they don't give me fair and honest service? Would that be better for them.

I can promise you right now that FCC lost at least $50,000 in sales in Canada based on my words these last few months. And this is just the people who have contacted me, who knows how many more are out there. Do you think the best course of action for them is to ignore me?

You think I am vocal now.
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Old July 15th, 2013, 20:56   #101
mcguyver
 
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Joseph, that crud is not rust, just some lubricant of some sort.
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Old July 15th, 2013, 21:23   #102
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Well, customer service is only good if you're actually being HELPED.
1) He's not being helped
2) Even if they DID send him a new mechbox, who's to say it wouldn't have the exact same flaws? Then the warranty runs out and OH no more warranty? No new parts. You're screwed regardless.
I doubt FCC would send a single person 3 new mechboxes on the same complaint, even if it failed 3 times for the same reason.

Someone in wpg is getting an FCC mechbox (hopefully before september), I'm gonna see if I can take a peek at it and see if it has the same gear lash issue.
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Old July 15th, 2013, 21:29   #103
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I have a contingency plan in case FCC does not honour their warranty.
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Old July 15th, 2013, 21:30   #104
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Post a review on youtube? lol
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Old July 15th, 2013, 21:33   #105
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Originally Posted by mcguyver View Post

I can promise you right now that FCC lost at least $50,000 in sales in Canada based on my words these last few months. And this is just the people who have contacted me, who knows how many more are out there. Do you think the best course of action for them is to ignore me?

You think I am vocal now.
I'm not surprised, picture worth a thousand words so far your comments were backed by pictures.
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