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Old February 12th, 2007, 09:49   #1
Gigueand's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: MI, USA / Toronto, ON
Do Not Buy From - A Cautionary Tale

I realize that this may not apply to you good folks in Canada, but I'm posting this across the internet to make sure that it gets heard by Please give it a read. Thanks for your time!

Dear Canada Airsoft Members,

I am writing this today because I want to inform you of a situation which has developed between myself and an online supplier,

I ordered an ICS M4 C-15 (SR-16) from around Thanksgiving of 2006. The gun arrived, but had a variety of problems. The major problem appeared to be electrical as the gun would fire, and then stop firing. A bit of jiggling of the wires coming out of the stock would fix
this problem, but it was still a problem nonetheless. In addition, the gun would
sometimes fire fully automatic when set to the semi-automatic mode. After having the gun
and firing probably about 2000 rounds through it, the gun would just whir and not fire.
Eventually it stopped firing altogether. I assumed that this was an electrical problem

In addition, there was some wear and tear on the gun. The black paint near the stock and
grip of the gun was worn away, and the paint on the flash suppressor was also worn. To me
it appears that the gun may have been a store model and was hung on a wall or rack. I
only assume this from where the paint has been rubbed away.

I e-mailed and filled out their RMA (return request) form. I returned the gun
to them at a cost of $30 to myself and the gun was in their custody for about five to six weeks. When the gun was returned to me I happily ripped open the packaging, plugged a battery into the gun and pulled the trigger. The gun cycled for one round and then would not fire. I assumed again that this was an electrical problem.

Rather than returning the gun to for another six weeks, I opened the gun's
stock and wired Dean's Connectors into place where the tamiya connectors were. This still
did not solve the problem. I assumed that the problem then was with the gearbox and I
took the gun to a local shop, Empire Airsoft. I had the technician there open the
gun to see what the problem was. The problem was in the wiring assembly. He fixed this
problem, but while doing so informed me that the gun had a TURBO 2000 motor and nylon or
plastic bushings.

Hearing this, I was a bit surprised considering that I ordered the new 2006 ICS M4 C-15
with the TURBO 3000, Metal bushings, new wiring, etc, from the website. Had I
known that I would be receiving an older model gun I would not have ordered from

What is puzzling to me is that on their website they list all of their ICS
guns as the new 2006 model with all of the new upgrades. In fact, the box in which my gun
was shipped had a sticker on it identifying the gun as a new 2006 model with all of those
upgrades.’s website states very specifically states that new ICS models come with:

"ICS refer this AEG as a Pre-upgraded EAG because this 2006 model now comes with:

1) New Turbo 3000 Super Torque Motor

2) Precision Cut Reinforced Motor Pinion Gear

3. Precision Cut Reinforced No.1 (Bevel) Gear.

4. Steel Bushing, Made of harden silicon alloy.

5. Low resistance 16-AWG Electric wire. "

So, after having the gun returned to me by my local shop, I phoned and
explained the situation to them. They directed me to fill out an RMA form and send it in
to them with all of the details. I did so and included my original order number and
everything else they requested. In this e-mail I detailed my dealings with the gun, how I had opened the gun and added Dean’s Connectors and how the gun had been repaired by the Empire Airsoft technician. Unfortunately, they e-mailed me back and told me that
they would not allow the gun to be returned for a full reimbursement, but that they would
send me a new motor and metal bushings.

This solution was unacceptable to me, so I e-mailed their ICS supplier in the United States, TeamSD. I explained the situation to one of TeamSD’s representatives and they told me that they would contact and look into my claim.

A few days after I spoke via e-mail with the TeamSD representative, I received an e-mail from They advised me to return the gun and that they would send me a new 2006/2007 model ICS C-15.

I followed the directions in their e-mail and returned the gun at a cost to myself of $30.
Today, however, I was phoned by an representative who told me that the gun had “cosmetic damage.” I enquired as to what that damage was and was told that the paint on the gun’s grip/stock was worn away. Upon hearing this I informed the representative that that cosmetic damage was mentioned in my original RMA (return request). The damage was present on the gun when I first received it.

The representative informed me that he would have to call me back.

In the end, I ordered a specific type of gun from their website and paid a significant amount for it. The gun they sent me was not the correct model, despite what their website said and what was
labeled on the box. I realize that I voided the warranty by opening up the gun, but had
this not been done there would have been no way for me to tell if the gun was really the
correct model. In the end, finding out that the gun was not the correct model was done
only in a round-about way as I was trying to get the gun to function properly.

Had I known that I would not be getting the latest model (as
was shown on their website) I would not have ordered from them. In addition, while I
returned the gun to be fixed and paid to have it shipped all the way to California, the
gun which was returned to me did not work and I was forced to go to a local shop to have
the problem remedied.

While I am still awaiting a reply from concerning this issue, I have also filed a report with a California branch of the Better Business Bureau.

Upon an examination of the Better Business Bureau’s website I noted that has a “D” rating.

UPDATE: 2-12-06

The Better Business Bureau got back to me this morning. In their e-mail they informed me of's final decision on my problem. This is what was written:

"Initial Response - Posted 2-9-2007

Company states, they have issued a RMA authorized return and have returned a fully functional gun to the customer. Due to the fact that the gun has been altered and had been in the customer possession for over 3 months a refund will not be offered. Please refer to their warranty for information on the terms for refunds.

Initial Response Summary

Company states, the gun has been returned in working condition. No refund per company warranty terms."

Unfortunately, the gun has NOT be returned to me. I have recieved no tracking information of and no gun has arrived on my doorstep. Perhaps is a bit slow in getting this information to be, but no gun has arrived.

So, in the end, decided to not allow me to return the gun as they initially said I could, and they also have not (yet) returned my property to me.

If you have, like me, had problems with please report them to the Better Business Bureau so that concerned consumers can have a better record how this business is treating people.

Thank you very much for reading this rather exhaustive post…

If need be I am prepared to post all documentation which I have accumulated from my interactions with
Gigueand is offline   Reply With Quote