Join Date: Oct 2009
Originally Posted by FlyGuy
applicable to this case as the OP has said the police did in fact have a warrant, but this is a clear indication of how the police WILL try to get you to slip up and grant entry for their "fishing" expeditions no matter how flimsy their so-called evidence is. It's worth reading.
Posted from another forum:
"...At 3:30, I pick up my mail and note that I have a package waiting at security. This is standard operating procedures for my condo. Security signs for packages. I actually had 3 packages. One package consisted of two CZ858s (one restricted, one non-restricted) and two individual crates of 7.62x39. Although the CZs were discretely packaged, the ammo was not.
When I pick up the packages, the security officer (an older gentleman - perhaps in his 50's) said, "Oh, your the one with the rifles and ammo". I didn't really respond to this. He then stated, "Well, I hope you don't plan on keeping this stuff here". I responded, "Why not"? His answer, "I DON'T WANT TO SEE ANYBODY GET SHOT". I attempted to reassure him that I would be the last person to worry about going on a rampage.
I then took all my packages up to my condo (encountered absolutely nobody along the way), opened up the rifle boxes, cleaned them, trigger locked the non-restricted and properly secured the restricted. I then broke down the cardboard boxes (which only said "CZ" on them as well as had a little sticker which said "858-2" and "858-4". I also removed any identifying names (mine) from the packages and placed them in the recycling bin.
Skip forward to 9:10pm. My wife returns from her Pilates class and finds several uniformed police officers gathered in the elevator area on my floor. They ask her where she is going and when she tells them, they frantically call their superiors and state "We have the wife right here". They ask her whether I'm home and she tells them that she isn't 100% certain. Guessing that it is something firearms related, and knowing what kind of fishing expeditions happen with inspections, she refuses multiple requests to enter with her, and she also refuses to leave the door open. She then tells me what she encountered and then I wait. For approximately 20 minutes, nothing happens. I am able to note 4 marked police cruisers and one unmarked are waiting downstairs (isn't technology wonderful). I then see an officer with the rifle boxes place them in the trunk of one of the cruisers. Figuring they weren't going away, and knowing I did nothing wrong, and wanting to get some sleep, I call 22 division and tell them that I wanted somebody from the crew down there to call me.
About two minutes later, I do receive the call. Basically the sargeant tells me that they received a call and found my two boxes. He tells me that her knows that I am a legal firearms owner and that he has checked the system and sees that the non-restricted CZ is registered to me, but that the restricted is not. He says that he wants to come and inspect the firearm, the certificate and the storage. When I asked him whether they had a warrant, he responded that they DID NOT. I told the sargeant that I do have a certificate and that he should be calling the CFC which would certainly be able to prove it's worth the billions of dollars we have poured into it. He again explains that it isn't in the system and that he needs to come and check. I then ask him, "What law do you think I have violated", to which he responds, "That's what we are trying to determine". I end the converstion with "I'm sorry, without a warrant, you will not be entering my suite, and I will not help you with your fishing expedition". At this point, I believe that the sargeant lost cell phone reception (happens often on the ground floor) since the converstion ended mid sentence.
I then get my notice of transfer out to get the registration certificate number and wait for a call back. After about five minutes of no call, I contact 22 division again and ask that the sargeant call me back so I can forward him my certificate number and end this fiasco of wasted time and resources. A couple of minutes later, I get the knock at the door. From this point, here's the converstion as I remember it (Me = Me, Him = Detective Constable with the Guns and Gang Squad)
Me: Who is it?
Him: Toronto Police
Him: Can you open the door?
Me: I'm sorry, it's late, I'm not feeling well, and I'm not decent.
Him: Can you go throw some clothes on so you can open the door?
Me: It's my house and I elect not to.
Him: It's kind of awkward speaking through the door.
Me: Sorry, but if you want to speak with me, it will have to be this way.
At this point, he goes over the same story that the sargeant did over the phone about the restricted rifle not being in the system and that he wanted to enter to check it's legitimacy.
Me: Why don't you call the CFC?
Him: Well, our computers say it's not on there.
Me: Call the CFC. They exist for reasons just like this.
Him: Well why don't you open up. We can just check.
Me: Do you have a warrant?
Me: Without a warrant, you WILL NOT be entering.
Him: If you have nothing to hide, you should have no problem with us coming to check.
Me: Because I have nothing to hide is exactly why you have no reason to come inside.
Him: Listen, we have a report dealing with firearms. We're not just going to go away.
Me: That's great, but I'm not opening my door. I have broken no laws. I have done nothing wrong.
Him: Just open the door and show us your certificate, and this will all be over.
Me: I'm not opening the door, but I'd like to help you, so why don't I just read you the certificate number and you can call the CFC and they'll confirm everything is OK.
This little bit of the converstion repeats over and over again. The officer does not want to accept the number, insisting on physically checking the paperwork and storage.
Him: I'm going to note in my report that you are being uncooperative. This won't fare well for you.
Me: I am attempting to assist you, but you are insisting on violating my Charter Rights and illegally entering.
Him: Which Charter Right is that?
Me: Section 6 (I have learned this little misinformation trick from the Police themselves in the past. It is a fine way of testing their knowledge of the situation).
Pause... They don't realize that secion 6 doesn't apply, because their knowledge of the Charter is limited. Rookie mistake.
Him: So are you telling me that you are not going to cooperate.
Me: I'm attempting to help you out by giving you the certificate number, which is as good as the certificate itself, but you won't take it.
Him: When my report goes to the CFO and shows you aren't cooperating, it will affect your ability to renew you lisence.
Me: How about I scan a copy of my certificate and email it to your division.
Him: We're not equipped to deal with that. (Are they really so cash strapped that they have no email)
Me: Well then I can't help you.
Him: I know you have the firearm, I need to see the certificate.
Me: I have the certificate, everything is legitamite.
Him: So you admit you have the rifle.
Me: I'm not answering any more of your questions. Without a warrant, you are not entering. I've tried to assist you, but you won't listen.
Him: Good night.
Me: Good night.
This ended the events for the night.
The next day, I contacted the CFOs office and requested that they confirm that the registration certificate was indeed on the system. Not only was it there, it was the first firearm that comes up. I explained the story and she was sympathetic and confirmed that I acted well within my rights and that the officer should have had access to the information from his computer. I told her my concerns about the officers threats that there would be license renewal problems and she reassured me that she would take it up with the boss and make sure that it didn't happen.
Immediately following this converstion, I contacted the Guns and Gangs task force. A representative told me the following:
Currently, the Task Force has engaged in a large scale operation involving the expired PALs of Toronto as well as unregistered firearms. I was not on any such list. She also confirmed that my restricted CZ was on the computer system, but that the CPIC version may not have been updated (Note: The firearms was entered on the system on the 13th, and the incident occurred on the 19th. Can such discrepancies really exist?). She stated that there is no criminal investigation involving me, and that I have appeared to be complying with all regulations. There will be no escalation of this issue to the CFO and I have nothing to worry about."
I know that there are thread currently about searches and speaking with police. The above could fit nicely in either spot. Legal gun owners should know that they can stand up for their rights without fear. I stood up to the task force specifically attempting to confiscate firearms, and survived. They can too. I've preached it several times in those threads, and it holds true:
NO WARRANT, NO ENTRY!!!
Ultimately, the last line of this thread is the one everyone should pay heed to.
You have rights, use them or lose them.
that's a great story... Im not a fan of police officers, they think they're smart but really they're just smart asses... To sims: use your rights dude. Most of these cops are only grade 12 graduate's and hopefully you can get your guns back. You can actually sue your work place for accusing you of wrong things and giving you stress.
how can you help someone else if they're not willing to help themselves.