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-   -   FCC 2013 new release (https://airsoftcanada.com/showthread.php?t=152394)

wildcard March 22nd, 2013 20:53

FCC 2013 new release
 
For 2013 FCC will be introducing their new FTW, they will come in three different Variations, CQB/Diplomat, Tactical Carbine and DMR style, each will feature the following:

- FCC Ambi gear box in Speed and Torque
- FCC cylinder, 90/110/130
- Mini mosfet/ECU, with semi, tri burst and full auto capable
- Tango down grips
- Cast body with individual serial number and laser etched Fight club custom logo
- Midwest style slim battle rail
- 6 position Milspec buffertube
- CNC magazine catch, trigger guard, Charging handle
- Noveske low profile gas block
- FCC flashider, butt stock and complete inner barrel and hop up
- FCC Rampo Pmag
- MSRP under 2K for any of the variants
Basically this is a ready to go package all you need is battery. Release date will be early April pending on final QC it will be available in Canadian retailers in late April early June. Now for the gun porn
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e4...psa55f623c.jpg
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e4...ps59d6d92f.jpg
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e4...psdf4ae70d.jpg
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e4...psb6f445ef.jpg
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e4...ps7fe1b682.jpg
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e4...psdc71e458.jpg
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e4...ps786b4dc0.jpg
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e4...ps11a71377.jpg
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e4...psabe05fd8.jpg
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e4...psd782b034.jpg
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e4...ps7692a629.jpg
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e4...psd57de097.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQoTD...eature=g-all-u
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xzEm...eature=g-all-u
Team Ghosts Fight Club Custom 416D Review 2013 - YouTube

Please contact your local FCC dealer or check out their new facebook page https://www.facebook.com/FCCCanada

Blackthorne March 22nd, 2013 21:10

Dead.

Seaxy.

I want five!

QKLee11 March 22nd, 2013 23:10

Price
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wildcard (Post 1775939)
For 2013 FCC will be introducing their new FTW, they will come in three different Variations, CQB/Diplomat, Tactical Carbine and DMR style, each will feature the following:

- FCC Ambi gear box in Speed and Torque
- FCC cylinder, 90/110/130
- Mini mosfet/ECU, with semi, tri burst and full auto capable
- Tango down grips
- Cast body with individual serial number and laser etched Fight club custom logo
- Midwest style slim battle rail
- 6 position Milspec buffertube
- CNC magazine catch, trigger guard, Charging handle
- Noveske low profile gas block
- FCC flashider, butt stock and complete inner barrel and hop up
- FCC Rampo Pmag
- MSRP under 2K
Basically this is a ready to go package all you need is battery. Now for the gun porn
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e4...psa55f623c.jpg
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e4...ps59d6d92f.jpg
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e4...psdf4ae70d.jpg
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e4...psb6f445ef.jpg
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e4...ps7fe1b682.jpg
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e4...psdc71e458.jpg
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e4...ps786b4dc0.jpg
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e4...ps11a71377.jpg
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e4...psabe05fd8.jpg
Please contact your local FCC dealer

What is the cost?

wildcard March 22nd, 2013 23:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by QKLee11 (Post 1775986)
What is the cost?

Under $2K

Hectic March 22nd, 2013 23:28

So lemme see if i got this right.
This is efectively a PTW but with all the FCC goodies that make FC custom PTW's "beter,faster,stronger" then stock ptw's and half the cost?
If this is the case well damn looks like its finnaly time for me to get a "TW"
Cpl questions tho. The electronics, how water resistant are they. I know ptw electrics fizzle out often due to moisture but also heard the fcc replacements are prety water resistant will this be the case with these?
Are the markings final or will they maybe change the disign (mostly the "multi")
Lastly what are the chances of a "416" type i dont expect hk trades or amything just the frontset/upper.
I dont mind m4's but i love me some 416's.

In closing thanks FCC for bringing the "TW" to the average guy with im surd the quality we have come to expect from FC Customs at an afordable price for poor fellas like myself.
I always knew the systema stuff was way over priced, now we can see that it is lol

IggysPiggy March 22nd, 2013 23:40

With fcc's easter discount you can buy that 416 upper now for around 800 bucks. Lotsa great deals right now. Check out there page, I personally bought the 416 full kit and its gorgeous.

wildcard March 22nd, 2013 23:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hectic (Post 1775992)
So lemme see if i got this right.
This is efectively a PTW but with all the FCC goodies that make FC custom PTW's "beter,faster,stronger" then stock ptw's and half the cost?
If this is the case well damn looks like its finnaly time for me to get a "TW"
Cpl questions tho. The electronics, how water resistant are they. I know ptw electrics fizzle out often due to moisture but also heard the fcc replacements are prety water resistant will this be the case with these?
Are the markings final or will they maybe change the disign (mostly the "multi")
Lastly what are the chances of a "416" type i dont expect hk trades or amything just the frontset/upper.
I dont mind m4's but i love me some 416's.

In closing thanks FCC for bringing the "TW" to the average guy with im surd the quality we have come to expect from FC Customs at an afordable price for poor fellas like myself.
I always knew the systema stuff was way over priced, now we can see that it is lol

To answer your question: Yes it is a PTW
Moisture resistant - I played in rain, sleet and actually lost my new 416 in the snow (I did faceplant and lost the gun for 10 minutes) it still work like new

HK416D - will be discontinued but a limited run and a special 20 unit based on Zero Dark Thirty will be released later on this year, all will be pending on getting the pass from QA and QC

There is a rumor about two new platforms - Yes it's true and in development

Hectic March 22nd, 2013 23:59

@ iggyspiggy Yes id need a ptw to start with lol.
Thats why im wondering about the posibility of one of these full fcc built "tw's" commimg in a 416 type flavor to avoid having to buy a TW and a conversion or a pricey ptw4167 build (yes they are damn nice but if they can fully build their own brand of tw in the 2000 price range then they can likely do a 416 type in the same price range tho if noone asks we wont know or get them to consider it on a future release.
You could always just buy me one.... Jk, or am i....

@wildcard you say this is a ptw but its not a systema base correct? Its built fully from fcc parts is that right?
I judge from the price of their custom ptw to this new product that they are cutting out the middle man and just assembling their own quality parts to huild a ptw (and i mean why wouldnt they they build parts that systema owners buy to "upgrade" their guns anyhow it seems like the natural progression seeing as they make enough parts to build a full unit anyhow.

wildcard March 23rd, 2013 00:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hectic (Post 1776002)
Yes id need a ptw to start with lol.
Thats why im wondering about the posibility of one of these full fcc built "tw's" commimg in a 416 type flavor to avoid having to buy a TW and a conversion or a pricey ptw4167 build (yes they are damn nice but if they can fully build their own brand of tw in the 2000 price range then they can likely do a 416 type in the same price range tho if noone asks we wont know or get them to consider it on a future release.
You could always just buy me one.... Jk, or am i....

The 416D are all CNC which increased their cost substantially, this is FCC bringing their QC, quality and enhanced TW performance to the masses. The 416D will be discontinued and in fact they are working hard to finish the last batch of the limited edition 416D then off to bigger and better things

*Edit* Their 416D body is a very close dimension as the real version.

wildcard March 23rd, 2013 00:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hectic (Post 1776002)
@ iggyspiggy Yes id need a ptw to start with lol.
Thats why im wondering about the posibility of one of these full fcc built "tw's" commimg in a 416 type flavor to avoid having to buy a TW and a conversion or a pricey ptw4167 build (yes they are damn nice but if they can fully build their own brand of tw in the 2000 price range then they can likely do a 416 type in the same price range tho if noone asks we wont know or get them to consider it on a future release.
You could always just buy me one.... Jk, or am i....

@wildcard you say this is a ptw but its not a systema base correct? Its built fully from fcc parts is that right?
I judge from the price of their custom ptw to this new product that they are cutting out the middle man and just assembling their own quality parts to huild a ptw (and i mean why wouldnt they they build parts that systema owners buy to "upgrade" their guns anyhow it seems like the natural progression seeing as they make enough parts to build a full unit anyhow.

Ok first of all Tys is right, WRITE IN COHERENT SENTENCES!! Jk! FCC is a player based company, like myself they grew tired of getting crappy service and parts from Systema especially when you are paying in excess of $2K for a toy gun, so they start sourcing out parts and eventually making them themselves. It is a Systema based parts but enhanced such as Hop up, ECU, motors and eventually their metal bodies which are made from T6 CNC aluminum. ALL internal and external parts including their full build custom rifle are hand assembled and made in house, every part in the gun will go through their strict QC and QA tested before it even reach the market and I can attest personally about how good their after sales support, which by the way remain to be beaten by any airsoft manufacturer in terms of warranty and support by the CS.

You can't compared their CNC body and this new line it's like comparing Apples and Oranges, both are fruit but different, in this case this new line is made with cast bodies and gearbox compared to the more expensive line which consist of lots of CNC sexiness. this new line will give new TW user great value and performance without the heavier price tag of a custom CNC TW.
in any case if there were a comparison between AEG and cars, a Systema PTW will be a like a Porsche and the new FCC line will be like a Ferrari and their high end CNC line a Veyron. As far as their quality goes I have yet to break my FTW N4, XM177 and 416D and all of them have been shot in excess of over 10,000 rnds (the N4 and 416D are over 50,000rnds)

ILLusion March 23rd, 2013 00:47

I'll back up their service and support. They are the BEST Asian manufacturer I've ever had communications with, and are extremely open to comms. Facebook has been their primary means since day 1.

IggysPiggy March 23rd, 2013 00:55

Best comms of any company I've dealt with and I'm pretty bad sometimes.

Gato March 23rd, 2013 04:21

With that drop in price from PTWs, this even has my interest. Might be a good base for building an AEG C7 or C8 :)

wildcard March 23rd, 2013 08:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gato (Post 1776050)
With that drop in price from PTWs, this even has my interest. Might be a good base for building an AEG C7 or C8 :)

You would never see a similarly equiped TW from Systema for the same price, my former M16A3 after all the modification internally cost me around $2400 and that is before the proper prime body, trying to get parts from Systema or Zshot is like trying to get a bone from a rabid dog.

Gato March 23rd, 2013 09:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by wildcard (Post 1776071)
You would never see a similarly equiped TW from Systema for the same price, my former M16A3 after all the modification internally cost me around $2400 and that is before the proper prime body, trying to get parts from Systema or Zshot is like trying to get a bone from a rabid dog.

While I don't own a PTW and never have, considering I view them as finicky and over priced, while suffering more downtime than a DBOYs rifle, I have had to try and deal with them on the behalf of other people, and it was such fun -__-


I've heard fantastic things about FCC though, so if I was able to put that kind of money aside for airsoft, I'd be more than willing to give them a try.

wildcard March 23rd, 2013 10:14

You are more than welcome to give mine a test ride if you attend any of teh games I go to

mcguyver March 23rd, 2013 10:29

Let us just be clear here folks, FCC is really not cheaper than Systema, don't be fooled yet by the hype. And no, they are not "more reliable", I have seen failures of their core components as well.

They have some innovations in material, and yes, they bring some products out as features that Systema could have done, had they not been in Japan.

But when $2000 for a Systema causes you to "pass", but when it is an FCC, you are interested, well, clearly, you don't know the platform.

Currently, for reliability, I will take an FCC body with Systema internals, and an armature from Tony with my own hopup.

Sorry, Jay, I am calling it as I see it.

wildcard March 23rd, 2013 10:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcguyver (Post 1776099)
Let us just be clear here folks, FCC is really not cheaper than Systema, don't be fooled yet by the hype. And no, they are not "more reliable", I have seen failures of their core components as well.

They have some innovations in material, and yes, they bring some products out as features that Systema could have done, had they not been in Japan.

But when $2000 for a Systema causes you to "pass", but when it is an FCC, you are interested, well, clearly, you don't know the platform.

Currently, for reliability, I will take an FCC body with Systema internals, and an armature from Tony with my own hopup.

Sorry, Jay, I am calling it as I see it.

You may have some great luck with your PTW but the last time I checked Brad I had to literally begged for parts within this board to get my $2K plus toy gun working again and only to have it failed even the 2012 that I got from DTT, even Tony's modded gun have failed in my hand lucky for me he responds a whole hell lot faster than Systema or Zshot. FCC however have never failed me yet 50K in bbs shot from one AEG not one single failure yet, losing my new 416 in deep wet snow, still working I can't say the same for my Systema in fact the only one I have left is their TW5 which by the way are far more reliable than their M4 series. FCC have their faults I'm not saying that they are fault proof but their after sales support and their willingness to acknowledge faulty parts are unbelieveable, you should know how many burned out faulty motors hav ecoem across your bench? probably too many to count, I came across two motors and each one was replaced no question asked. Like you I call it the way I see it too.

*edit* Also I'm forgetting to state that from a company that was started by players in 2008 to have gone as far as they have become now is a quite amazing, do they have things to improve on? hell yes its the future of what is coming out from this little company that peaked my interest and from personal experience I have nothing but good experience from them and this is coming from huge systema fan and user since they started their AEG line with Marui. For the general masses without the know how to or the means to fix their PTW issue, they are teh best one in the market right now hands down.

mcguyver March 23rd, 2013 11:19

I am currently working on a Systema that the owner ordered an FCC EL-001 that failed instantly never got a round off. He has been waiting weeks, so his Systema board is back in. Their EL-003 is Airsoft Surgeon design, and we all know how reliable they were, I still have a box full of them under my bench.

FCC has some work to do, I have spoken to Chris about the issues I saw right away that are really easy fixes at the manufacturing level. They include, but are not limited to:

Their motor. QC and assembly is horrendous there is no reason that their brush hoods have to be so poorly formed that they flash out from the bell end. If you are installing, but most especially removing a grip, you risk breaking the screws. If you are using this motor to replace a Systema motor and using grip with tight tolerances, it is a real bastard.

Their mil-spec buffer tube is not mil-milspec. Buy a real stock and it is a son of a bitch. Dissapointing.

Their MOE grip cover leaves the motor exposed. I can stick tools in and touch the brush hoods, forget about debris. There is no fix unless you install a MIAD or customize a grip core as I have done.

Their hopup is as good as a 2012, but nowhere near as good as custom 3mm, and as good as a custom 2mm.

The improvements they do have are, but not limited to:

The barrel key has threads to allow for easier extraction.

The hopup uses a spring for tension instead of rubber cushions. But continuous compression and decompression of a small diameter spring has its own issues. So this is more of a neutral, rather than a plus.

Their gearbox and geartrain are in par, no better, no worse.

Motor. I will take take an armature from Tony any day over a fcatory FCC motor. However, their motor from new is superior than the factory motor from new, but not for reasons indicated above. One thing to remember as well, getting a rewound armature and placing it in a motor that the bearings have already seen a hundred thousand rounds may not be the best thing. I have seen this crop up.

FCC body is superior. No question there.

The rest is really inconsequential, but they do offer some neat features like EZ pull pins. But I can also buy that stuff from real steel for alot less money and easier availability.

Customer service I have heard is better. But, I have never had to use customer service at Systema, and there is no person who is not a retailer on ASC who has owned more Systema guns than me, not even you, by a long shot. I did have get parts one time from Wallace that were unavailable anywhere, and he sent me a bunch of replacement armatures no charge. That was good service.

Don't get me wrong, FCC does make some nice stuff, I own it myself. And I would buy more. However, my standards are high, and I have the resources and experience to call what I see and fix it. But FCC should be doing it. We'll see.

If I had been in Calgary this weekend they would have heard about it.

wildcard March 23rd, 2013 11:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcguyver (Post 1776108)
I am currently working on a Systema that the owner ordered an FCC EL-001 that failed instantly never got a round off. He has been waiting weeks, so his Systema board is back in. Their EL-003 is Airsoft Surgeon design, and we all know how reliable they were, I still have a box full of them under my bench.

FCC has some work to do, I have spoken to Chris about the issues I saw right away that are really easy fixes at the manufacturing level. They include, but are not limited to:

Their motor. QC and assembly is horrendous there is no reason that their brush hoods have to be so poorly formed that they flash out from the bell end. If you are installing, but most especially removing a grip, you risk breaking the screws. If you are using this motor to replace a Systema motor and using grip with tight tolerances, it is a real bastard.

Their mil-spec buffer tube is not mil-milspec. Buy a real stock and it is a son of a bitch. Dissapointing.

Their MOE grip cover leaves the motor exposed. I can stick tools in and touch the brush hoods, forget about debris. There is no fix unless you install a MIAD or customize a grip core as I have done.

Their hopup is as good as a 2012, but nowhere near as good as custom 3mm, and as good as a custom 2mm.

The improvements they do have are, but not limited to:

The barrel key has threads to allow for easier extraction.

The hopup uses a spring for tension instead of rubber cushions. But continuous compression and decompression of a small diameter spring has its own issues. So this is more of a neutral, rather than a plus.

Their gearbox and geartrain are in par, no better, no worse.

Motor. I will take take an armature from Tony any day over a fcatory FCC motor. However, their motor from new is superior than the factory motor from new, but not for reasons indicated above. One thing to remember as well, getting a rewound armature and placing it in a motor that the bearings have already seen a hundred thousand rounds may not be the best thing. I have seen this crop up.

FCC body is superior. No question there.

The rest is really inconsequential, but they do offer some neat features like EZ pull pins. But I can also buy that stuff from real steel for alot less money and easier availability.

Customer service I have heard is better. But, I have never had to use customer service at Systema, and there is no person who is not a retailer on ASC who has owned more Systema guns than me, not even you, by a long shot. I did have get parts one time from Wallace that were unavailable anywhere, and he sent me a bunch of replacement armatures no charge. That was good service.

Don't get me wrong, FCC does make some nice stuff, I own it myself. And I would buy more. However, my standards are high, and I have the resources and experience to call what I see and fix it. But FCC should be doing it. We'll see.

If I had been in Calgary this weekend they would have heard about it.

Well some of the issues you mentioned are being worked on, the new milspec buffer tube are indeed mil spec I have one on my 416 and have no issu ewith the stock however I do agree with you that their older milspec stuff are off a bit and a bitch. Their CS and QA are quite reachable either through email or facebook and any question or concerns are answered within 1-2 business days sometime even within hours.

In regards to the motor, again it is better than stock ( I have yet to have a failure) but no doubt that Tony's motor is a gem but not readilly available i had 1 burnt out in 6 yrs of using so it was great while it lasted. FCC is a small company that is seeing growth so I'm still interested to see what they will come up next, I'm sort of tired of the same old AR platform being rehashed again and again but without the so much of an acknowledgement of the issues in hand or improvement.

CS at Zshot is almost questionable, Wallace used to be on the ball but as hi scompany grew his CS are very questionable I used to get great service from him but inthe last three years its a hit or miss mostly a miss mind you that Systema itself have had very little parts available to its distributors in the last two years. Remember the 001/002 boards that I was desperately begging for?

mcguyver March 23rd, 2013 11:42

I wish I could have a more in-depth on the 416, but it is appearing that my dreams are slowly being extinguished. I should have had one months ago when I ordered, but alas, nothing.

What I will be completing will be the FCC/Systema/real hybrid. I get the best of all of it for far less than a factory 416. But I still want one anyway.

wildcard March 23rd, 2013 12:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcguyver (Post 1776118)
I wish I could have a more in-depth on the 416, but it is appearing that my dreams are slowly being extinguished. I should have had one months ago when I ordered, but alas, nothing.

What I will be completing will be the FCC/Systema/real hybrid. I get the best of all of it for far less than a factory 416. But I still want one anyway.

Buddy I told you before man drop by to Toronto I'll let you molest it, it is very sweet BTW better than the WE/Systema/ hybrid concoction that I had before

Hectic March 23rd, 2013 12:17

Every time i looked into a systema it was 2900-4000 and in most cases just a plain jane m4 (no rail system or anything) these are said to be sub2000 (likely 1899 or 1999 but still thats 1/3 off the price of a systema thays what i was saying price wise it is more reasonable for folks like me who dont have as much disposable income

Edit i see now that the systema stuff is alot cheaper then when i last looked thats good to see. Time to do more research i spose

Enjoi March 23rd, 2013 12:32

Perhaps I`m missing something here or just un-educated...regarding pricing...I`m seeing Some Systema`s for $1500-$2080 BNIB. And these are MSRP less than $2000.... Why am I so confused here after reading some of the comments saying this would be a good idea "pricewise"?

mcguyver March 23rd, 2013 12:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enjoi (Post 1776131)
Perhaps I`m missing something here or just un-educated...regarding pricing...I`m seeing Some Systema`s for $1500-$2080 BNIB. And these are MSRP less than $2000.... Why am I so confused here after reading some of the comments saying this would be a good idea "pricewise"?

Well, you get a rail on the FCC, so add $200

I am not sure if this version of body is on par quailty-wise with the CNCd version FCC makes. But if it is, add another $200. If it a cast alloy, then cost wise is the same.

I would expect 2013 Systema to be $2000, and not any less, in Canada, so product to product they are very close. Used or previous model years can be all over the place. I don't trust BNIB in the classifieds. Some guys say BNIB and it really means that they used it for a few games, but didn't beat it up or break it. Not the same thing.

wildcard March 23rd, 2013 13:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcguyver (Post 1776134)
Well, you get a rail on the FCC, so add $200

I am not sure if this version of body is on par quailty-wise with the CNCd version FCC makes. But if it is, add another $200. If it a cast alloy, then cost wise is the same.

I would expect 2013 Systema to be $2000, and not any less, in Canada, so product to product they are very close. Used or previous model years can be all over the place. I don't trust BNIB in the classifieds. Some guys say BNIB and it really means that they used it for a few games, but didn't beat it up or break it. Not the same thing.

A buddy paid $2640 for the 2013 super max plus all the other accesories ie . mags, batteries, rail and CTR stock. His gun is on my desk right now waiting for a new motor from Zshot

The Body eventhough it's cast its one of the nicest one yet almost the same as their CNC I will have a detailed review of it soon.

wildcard March 23rd, 2013 15:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enjoi (Post 1776131)
Perhaps I`m missing something here or just un-educated...regarding pricing...I`m seeing Some Systema`s for $1500-$2080 BNIB. And these are MSRP less than $2000.... Why am I so confused here after reading some of the comments saying this would be a good idea "pricewise"?

Well if you get a stock systema around say $1800 you could never leave it stock so sent out the motor and Hop up + $100, rails +$200, aftermarket body +$200, upgrade stocks & mini ECU + $300 (conservative), other furniture and blings +$150 so in the end it's quite an amount still and you still have to waterproof the boards and no burst unless you buy it direct from Systema

So in the end its still economical to the general population to get the FCC. much like some players here who have owned multiple PTW I was one of teh doubters of this company I can't believe that a small company from HK can fix the issues that a large company like Systema have failed to acknowledge or fixed but the quality of some o ftheir parts and the result won me over to the point where I ditch almost all of my PTW for their custom build model, even the one Tony build with all the Prime body sexiness. Like Brad said in teh earlier post BNIB sometimes are not BNIB unless you know the owner personally.

CGX11 March 30th, 2013 12:28

ahh needs the veske lower receiver... ;)

wildcard April 1st, 2013 08:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by CGX11 (Post 1778650)
ahh needs the veske lower receiver... ;)

Wait till you see what's coming up soon

Ricochet April 7th, 2013 11:31

$2000.00 is good price wise because of what you get, and I concur that it's well worth it. I imagine they'll come down more in the next few years because of companies like FCC.

I'm with Brad on the pros and cons, but eventually FCC should be better all around. They should focus on places Systema flopped, or where mediocre first. Mastering that is what guys like MacGuyver and myself have been waiting for. Its too bad you didn't get to come down to Calgary Mac, I'd have loved to see you pick FCC's brain. I have my own opinions and experiences as being a long time Systema owner, heavy heavy user, and doctor; but I still defer to Mac as the foremost expert.

wildcard April 8th, 2013 02:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ricochet (Post 1781379)
$2000.00 is good price wise because of what you get, and I concur that it's well worth it. I imagine they'll come down more in the next few years because of companies like FCC.

I'm with Brad on the pros and cons, but eventually FCC should be better all around. They should focus on places Systema flopped, or where mediocre first. Mastering that is what guys like MacGuyver and myself have been waiting for. Its too bad you didn't get to come down to Calgary Mac, I'd have loved to see you pick FCC's brain. I have my own opinions and experiences as being a long time Systema owner, heavy heavy user, and doctor; but I still defer to Mac as the foremost expert.

The cost of the new FTW is priced very competitively when compared to a similarly equiped PTW, the prototype minus the ambi selector will be available for review, which will be posted here as soon as its finished, from what I've seen the color is not as fine as the finished products but the guts and internals are great. initial firing test is great just waiting for the prototype to arrive to complete some field testing before the final QC is finished and products is launched. FCC Valued their customer opinions and comments whether its bad or good, they actually encourage their customer to give them the opinions and comments, for FCC the comments and end user feedback is very important to help them further improve their products.

siglynn April 9th, 2013 00:23

What I would like to know what are the fps ratings on the FCC cyclenders and who has the better hop up FCC or DT. I would be greatful for the info also who is a FCC dealer here because would like to get a 416 compote upper.
Thanks:rocket:

mcguyver April 9th, 2013 01:22

The FCC hopup uses a square spring, and a factory Systema as well as a modified hopup use hard silicone rubber cushions. The spring is going to be more linear, however is not as strong as the cushions. The cushions are vastly more affected by temperature snd stiffen up when cold, something the spring doesn't do. A strong spring is required to apply maximum pressure from the adjuster onto the BB.

A modified hopup uses a 3MM adjuster while the FCC is 2MM as well as the 2012 factory adjuster. It is fine, but the larger adjuster will form around the top of the BB once it is bedded in.

I personally prefer a modified hopup, but would like to replace the cushions with a stronger spring. FCC has the right idea, but the spring strength needs to increase by a large amount, something I am not sure can be done with the existing design of the adjuster cage. This is probably the reason why rubber cushions have been used for so many years and through all design changes.

There are pros and cons to both.

wildcard April 9th, 2013 09:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by siglynn (Post 1782032)
What I would like to know what are the fps ratings on the FCC cyclenders and who has the better hop up FCC or DT. I would be greatful for the info also who is a FCC dealer here because would like to get a 416 compote upper.
Thanks:rocket:

DTT is the only official dealer in Canada for now, Chris is a great guy to deal with.

wildcard April 9th, 2013 09:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcguyver (Post 1782042)
The FCC hopup uses a square spring, and a factory Systema as well as a modified hopup use hard silicone rubber cushions. The spring is going to be more linear, however is not as strong as the cushions. The cushions are vastly more affected by temperature snd stiffen up when cold, something the spring doesn't do. A strong spring is required to apply maximum pressure from the adjuster onto the BB.

A modified hopup uses a 3MM adjuster while the FCC is 2MM as well as the 2012 factory adjuster. It is fine, but the larger adjuster will form around the top of the BB once it is bedded in.

I personally prefer a modified hopup, but would like to replace the cushions with a stronger spring. FCC has the right idea, but the spring strength needs to increase by a large amount, something I am not sure can be done with the existing design of the adjuster cage. This is probably the reason why rubber cushions have been used for so many years and through all design changes.

There are pros and cons to both.

on all their 2013 FTW, complete rifles and hop up kits will have the stronger spring, I too prefer the modified Hop but in winter its a pain as Brad say it will stiff/freeze on you. I have used both in extreme winter conditions (-25 -30C) and the FCC hop have no issue

deltaop1 April 10th, 2013 22:57

Would you happen to know if the 2013 FTW's are able to use PTW Pmags?

I ask because I understand that the FCC 416's have fitment issues using the PTW Pmags.

Any information would be appreciated, thanks.

wildcard April 10th, 2013 23:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by deltaop1 (Post 1782852)
Would you happen to know if the 2013 FTW's are able to use PTW Pmags?

I ask because I understand that the FCC 416's have fitment issues using the PTW Pmags.

Any information would be appreciated, thanks.

The FCC416D does have issue with the PMags, but the new M3 mags will fit. I have to wait till the Prototype arrive before I can confirm, but according to FCC they are made to fit with every mag I will confirm this when the FTW arrive sometime this week.

Enjoi April 11th, 2013 17:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by wildcard (Post 1776167)
Well if you get a stock systema around say $1800 you could never leave it stock so sent out the motor and Hop up + $100, rails +$200, aftermarket body +$200, upgrade stocks & mini ECU + $300 (conservative), other furniture and blings +$150 so in the end it's quite an amount still and you still have to waterproof the boards and no burst unless you buy it direct from Systema

So in the end its still economical to the general population to get the FCC. much like some players here who have owned multiple PTW I was one of teh doubters of this company I can't believe that a small company from HK can fix the issues that a large company like Systema have failed to acknowledge or fixed but the quality of some o ftheir parts and the result won me over to the point where I ditch almost all of my PTW for their custom build model, even the one Tony build with all the Prime body sexiness. Like Brad said in teh earlier post BNIB sometimes are not BNIB unless you know the owner personally.

Not to play a critical Noob here but....What If I didnt need any of that stuff? I understand the hop up mod, but I dont need rails and an aftermarket body or anything like that. I know I need Batteries,Mags,Cylinders for a Systema Startup which to me takes precedence over those other things. I may be just one out of many who decide to go the other route, but I never really liked "blinging" out my gun lol.

I bought a Rail for my RS Type 97 but left it off and preferred to use my Iron Sights, Same thing for my RS Type56 Though I had some work done to the Mechbox.

Im not biased towards either gun, but The feel and performance would definately get me.

wildcard April 11th, 2013 20:54

Well I guess it's up to you whether the FTW is for you but for me personally its a good buy and they also come with a three month end user warranty, something that I don't think any other TW have and their after sales support is great. FCC have been known for their bling out race gun aside from their limited 416 and XM the rest have been based on a tactical race rifle

MASAKO April 11th, 2013 21:59

Look interesting, Once I have more break from my recent open restaurant. I will have to grab one or two of those.

Honestly, I used to be Systema fan but be able to buy a product come with a good warranty, great communication and great product from the start would save me time on the mod and spend more on the field.

The same thing apply to real steel product, once I start to spend more than 2k, I expect the manufacture will take care their warranty and start to improve their product, it's not really a cheap toy.

wildcard April 11th, 2013 22:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by MASAKO (Post 1783324)
Look interesting, Once I have more break from my recent open restaurant. I will have to grab one or two of those.

Honestly, I used to be Systema fan but be able to buy a product come with a good warranty, great communication and great product from the start would save me time on the mod and spend more on the field.

The same thing apply to real steel product, once I start to spend more than 2k, I expect the manufacture will take care their warranty and start to improve their product, it's not really a cheap toy.

Lol better hope you don't have a break for at least two to three years otherwise you are in trouble. Keep an eye out for some new arrival announcement either here or on the FCC Canada facebook.

MASAKO April 11th, 2013 22:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by wildcard (Post 1783330)
Lol better hope you don't have a break for at least two to three years otherwise you are in trouble. Keep an eye out for some new arrival announcement either here or on the FCC Canada facebook.

Nah ! not really, I still love airsoft but my schedule is very tight, being a chef yourself, you should how hard to take a break and the worst is when you owe the restaurant yourself. I stop counting my hour once I start it. Real steel is quite adorable, the range only 10 minutes from my place so always have one of two hours to drop by.

Anyway, the great thing about FCC is be able to fix the problem right from the start, listen to their customer, honor their product and warranty. That's the great way of starting business from the start whereas systema just simply take our money and quite but I have respect for them to be the mother company, still again it's not a cheap toy to be left miserable when you try to source their new parts to replace the broken one.

Sorry for my rant. I must be drinking too much Guru.

wildcard April 12th, 2013 00:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by MASAKO (Post 1783348)
Nah ! not really, I still love airsoft but my schedule is very tight, being a chef yourself, you should how hard to take a break and the worst is when you owe the restaurant yourself. I stop counting my hour once I start it. Real steel is quite adorable, the range only 10 minutes from my place so always have one of two hours to drop by.

Anyway, the great thing about FCC is be able to fix the problem right from the start, listen to their customer, honor their product and warranty. That's the great way of starting business from the start whereas systema just simply take our money and quite but I have respect for them to be the mother company, still again it's not a cheap toy to be left miserable when you try to source their new parts to replace the broken one.

Sorry for my rant. I must be drinking too much Guru.

Amen to that, its hennesy for me after some crazy nights which seems to be very often these days.

wildcard April 12th, 2013 19:37

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e4...ps43e44cf4.jpg
Exclusive limited release 416D, FCC tango down grips, 115 cylinder, Full CNC 416D body, functioning ambi gear selector, full auto and tri burst capable, FCC mini ECU

MASAKO April 12th, 2013 20:13

Please stop teasing me. I'm going to hate you soon.

coach April 13th, 2013 00:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by MASAKO (Post 1783681)
Please stop teasing me. I'm going to hate you soon.

At least you don't get it direct from wildcard via text, phone and in person!!! lol

GBBR April 13th, 2013 02:30

Must resist and buy more gbbr!

BIGMEDCIN April 13th, 2013 03:40

The FCC hop is by far the best yet for a PTW, the square spring and their hop rubber has done well for me in both 390fps and DMR platforms I use, the rubber material they use for their hop works well in cold, hot and damp weather, the spring system they use with a drop of blue on the adjuster screw and you have a rock solid hop setting that you dont have to mess with in the field.

yes I have tried the stock systema hop set up, dont waist your time on it unless you can modify and even then to dremel out material to use larger cushions and add a larger silicon rubber nub to get some kind of over hop is a pain, when you can spend $50 on a FCC complete hop unit and never worry about it as it works great for all BB weights and will adjust for them all!

I also use the 2.5 motor, an other amazing unit, again you dont have to spend $200 on a systema motor then have it re wound, the FCC motor at $185 is worth every penny.

I am not pro FCC nor anty Systema, my PTW's use Systema Cylinders and everything else FCC, mostly due to in some cases cost effectiveness, FCC is not cheap, I am not saying that, yes some components are cheaper part for part but my biggest influence is availability, I can order any part for my PTW and get a responce with in 8 hrs, and have shipped what every I need the next day, now knock on wood I have not have a failure of their parts yet, what I have been ordering is spare parts just in case, but the service, cost and "availability" is second to none that I have found in the PTW world.

wildcard April 13th, 2013 10:11

Bigmedcin, couldn't agree with you more unfortunately being a small company like FCC the issue will always be cost due to the low production capability and production numbers but they are small enough to care and big enough to satisfy their customer base, their constant quest to make their product better is like an obsession especially the two brothers Sailun and Amoom I kind like to compare them to the old Systema when they were first starting up. their gears at the time were fantastic yet expensive their SS inner barrel awesome but again expensive, they were one of the first to comeout with a reinforced gearbox for Marui V2, metalbodies etc. I'm not saying that they will be perfect because they are not but their Customer service, product availability and product quality certainly have won me over and a lot more PTW users too. I'm also very interested in their R&D which is by far the fastest R&D, the last I spoke to them their CNC machine have planned projects that will keep them busy till 2016 and there will be more to come from this little company.

BIGMEDCIN April 14th, 2013 17:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by wildcard (Post 1783824)
Bigmedcin, couldn't agree with you more unfortunately being a small company like FCC the issue will always be cost due to the low production capability and production numbers but they are small enough to care and big enough to satisfy their customer base, their constant quest to make their product better is like an obsession especially the two brothers Sailun and Amoom I kind like to compare them to the old Systema when they were first starting up. their gears at the time were fantastic yet expensive their SS inner barrel awesome but again expensive, they were one of the first to comeout with a reinforced gearbox for Marui V2, metalbodies etc. I'm not saying that they will be perfect because they are not but their Customer service, product availability and product quality certainly have won me over and a lot more PTW users too. I'm also very interested in their R&D which is by far the fastest R&D, the last I spoke to them their CNC machine have planned projects that will keep them busy till 2016 and there will be more to come from this little company.

Even when you go through their list of products cost for cost, I find them very competitive and in some cases cheaper than systema parts! hop units, Barrels, motors, electrical units, cylinders! when I built my DRM and priced matched, it was only the gear box I purchases that was 25% more than the stock max systema (I ordered the drop in Torque gear box), again I will say that their is nothing wrong with Systema and they broke the ground for the PTW/CTW market and still continue to make good parts, but when I was parts ordering I did not have the time or patience to surf multiple sites hunting up everything I needed, only to be disappointed by lack of availability! in the end a one stop order from FCC, they had all components I needed in one shot and I paid basically the same price since some FCC parts are cheaper than Systema ie: motors and electronic units! also they have a warranty that I am confident will be honored with no song and dance.

wildcard June 20th, 2013 14:21

NEW 3.0 Performance motor, availble in mid summer.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e4...ps2ede8332.jpg
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e4...ps68b252f7.jpg

seabass June 20th, 2013 15:00

Details?

mcguyver June 20th, 2013 15:30

Should FCC want me to review this product as well?

wildcard June 20th, 2013 15:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by seabass (Post 1808387)
Details?

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcguyver (Post 1808394)
Should FCC want me to review this product as well?

Details and promo specials will be up soon.
Brad this motor is more powerfull and more stable than the newest Systema motor, the old design is in the past the initial test puts this thing at a tad over 38,000 rpm and from what I see the heat issue from the old 2.0/2.5 design no longer exist, I have a rifle in customs that is outfitted with the prototype that I will be testing but the three games that I played while in HK using this motor, it was quite surprisingly quiet especially even when we use the M150 spring.

-Trooper- June 20th, 2013 16:14

So sexy.

c3sk June 20th, 2013 16:33

Can't wait!

The_Redneck June 20th, 2013 18:22

Can't wait for this!

mcguyver June 20th, 2013 18:58

So, this was the motor that was going to be sent to me some months back?

ShelledPants June 20th, 2013 19:08

Exciting.

DaRkCoMmAnDo June 20th, 2013 19:09

Good thing I didnt buy a motor yet!

wildcard June 20th, 2013 19:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcguyver (Post 1808454)
So, this was the motor that was going to be sent to me some months back?

Nope that was the predecessor, we took all the motor available in the market FCC 2.5, Systema 480, 490, 7511, 7512, JG motor, CTW Motor, test them all make notes on each pros/cons on each of them and come up with this new design. I can tell you that this motor is the strongest in the market even stronger than the new Systema motor which peaks out at under 29,000rpm the new motor can go 38,000RPM before tweaking

kullwarrior June 20th, 2013 23:26

I know there's a hot debate above me, but this is still relevant to FCC. Are they ever going to release a plain AR? All the AR are all exotic ones, I was wondering if they'll ever release complete M16A1, M16A2 etc.

c3sk June 21st, 2013 02:00

Mcguyver, Wildcard.

Here is the deal. I have to clean this thread. There is definitely some good reading between you guys, and I'm definitely not trying to discourage opinions to be voiced. However, since this was once a product announcement thread, I only ask that it be kept for that + some informative Q&A which was being provided until this thread suddenly went to *$&%.

Mcguyver, you keep doing what you do, providing detailed analysis of your findings in a thread designated for it.. besides, much easier for the ASC user base to receive information if it is concentrated in one concise area of the forums.

Wildcard, you keep doing what you do, front line intel from FCC on what is coming down the pipe. A lot of users (including myself) have invested in FCC products, and are very interested to see what new stuff they have coming up.

The community definitely thanks both of you for your knowledge, experience and efforts to provide information to us. However please try to do this in a manner which doesn't involve you stepping on each others toes.

If you guys need any other thread cleaned, just let the mods know.


Thanks for understanding!

wildcard June 21st, 2013 02:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by kullwarrior (Post 1808603)
I know there's a hot debate above me, but this is still relevant to FCC. Are they ever going to release a plain AR? All the AR are all exotic ones, I was wondering if they'll ever release complete M16A1, M16A2 etc.

Yes they are, they are rereleasing their XM177 series, also available later on this year will be their cast body series (cheaper than CNC) and the next platform launch will be around Christmas for the .308 platform which will include SR25, HK417, and M110 then inthe new year will be the AK platform and some other PDW

Quote:

Originally Posted by c3sk (Post 1808664)
Mcguyver, Wildcard.

Here is the deal. I have to clean this thread. There is definitely some good reading between you guys, and I'm definitely not trying to discourage opinions to be voiced. However, since this was once a product announcement thread, I only ask that it be kept for that + some informative Q&A which was being provided until this thread suddenly went to *$&%.

Mcguyver, you keep doing what you do, providing detailed analysis of your findings in a thread designated for it.. besides, much easier for the ASC user base to receive information if it is concentrated in one concise area of the forums.

Wildcard, you keep doing what you do, front line intel from FCC on what is coming down the pipe. A lot of users (including myself) have invested in FCC products, and are very interested to see what new stuff they have coming up.

The community definitely thanks both of you for your knowledge, experience and efforts to provide information to us. However please try to do this in a manner which doesn't involve you stepping on each others toes.

If you guys need any other thread cleaned, just let the mods know.


Thanks for understanding!

RGR

metagod June 21st, 2013 19:37

glad i backed out on picking up a 2.5

boren93 June 22nd, 2013 15:58

Omg ak. Pls dont be tacticool.

wildcard August 12th, 2013 12:42

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e4...ps62a35926.jpghttp://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e4...pse8b31c50.jpghttp://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e4...pse43c0268.jpg
IT's ALIVE !!!!!!
Reload! FCC 3.0 motor rpm test, more accurate - YouTube

7512 Fail
Systema 7512 motor end broke like chips - YouTube

Cobrajr122 August 12th, 2013 12:45

What about a test w/ a fully charged battery voltage of 12.6V?

wildcard August 12th, 2013 12:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cobrajr122 (Post 1823996)
What about a test w/ a fully charged battery voltage of 12.6V?

We gamed the prototype using Systema 14.8 LiPo, it was retardedly fast for a PTW platform. This was a bench test of the finish batch vs the 7512 bought new from RedWolf (it's the third one they broke)

Cobrajr122 August 12th, 2013 13:13

14.8, fak.

I forgot the TW guys could go that high :P

mcguyver August 12th, 2013 14:00

PTW electronics have been rated for 15 volts since Gen 4, or about 5 years now. I would assume that since the architecture and programming of the FCC electronics is the same as Systema, then they woild be rated for 15 volts as well.

wildcard August 12th, 2013 14:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cobrajr122 (Post 1824005)
14.8, fak.

I forgot the TW guys could go that high :P

there are guys in HK went as retarded as 16V 35-40C (using FCC mosfet) to achieve the insane ROF

this is taken from ORGA in Japan:

"Chris Orga
We are fixing more and more PTW motors. We wish that more stable motors would come out.

As people say in their blogs, Systema's genuine motor comes with broken-down-wires and damage in the "komyu" part.

I guess you have to deal with these kind of problems if you are using PTWs. Replacing a motor will cost you roughly 200 USD. With a more stable motor that doesn't break as often, you'd be saving a lot of repair money.

We had several talks with Tackleberry but they don't seem to be too enthusiastic about either making stable motors or fixing the motors, so we invested on tools to fix motors."

they are experiencing a whole lot more problem than we do, at an average of 8 out of 10 motors failure rate, all are 7511 & 7512. That is also one of the reason FCC are starting to sell their core replacement parts
http://www.ptwcustom.com/index.php?m...roducts_id=508
http://www.ptwcustom.com/index.php?m...roducts_id=507
http://www.ptwcustom.com/index.php?m...roducts_id=521

Heater August 12th, 2013 14:57

Those receivers, oh my god.....

wildcard August 12th, 2013 14:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heater (Post 1824040)
Those receivers..... 8-O

They are cast bodies (CNC finish/Cast alloy construct) not full CNC, available in Rainier arms upper and lower set, Bravo company and Mega Arms. $390 CDN plus tax

Heater August 12th, 2013 16:05

If only I had the money.

mcguyver August 12th, 2013 18:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by wildcard (Post 1824026)
they are experiencing a whole lot more problem than we do, at an average of 8 out of 10 motors failure rate, all are 7511 & 7512. That is also one of the reason FCC are starting to sell their core replacement parts
http://www.ptwcustom.com/index.php?m...roducts_id=508
http://www.ptwcustom.com/index.php?m...roducts_id=507
http://www.ptwcustom.com/index.php?m...roducts_id=521

For anyone reading this, do not under any circumstances install the FCC metal spring posts nor metal brush hood screws in your Systema motor. The risk of error and short circuit via the end bell is extreme, even the most seasoned Systema tech could do it, the average DIYer has a worse chance.

In fact, if you buy anything, buy just the armature, you do not need any other parts, and if the 2.5 brush hoods are any indicator, you will have problems.

I also recommend the 30% silver brushes from Systema, and unless FCC has seriously changed their construction (the pictures show their old carbon brushes), then there is no need for them.

:banghead:

wildcard August 12th, 2013 23:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by wildcard (Post 1824026)
there are guys in HK went as retarded as 16V 35-40C (using FCC mosfet) to achieve the insane ROF

this is taken from ORGA in Japan:

"Chris Orga
We are fixing more and more PTW motors. We wish that more stable motors would come out.

As people say in their blogs, Systema's genuine motor comes with broken-down-wires and damage in the "komyu" part.

I guess you have to deal with these kind of problems if you are using PTWs. Replacing a motor will cost you roughly 200 USD. With a more stable motor that doesn't break as often, you'd be saving a lot of repair money.

We had several talks with Tackleberry but they don't seem to be too enthusiastic about either making stable motors or fixing the motors, so we invested on tools to fix motors."

they are experiencing a whole lot more problem than we do, at an average of 8 out of 10 motors failure rate, all are 7511 & 7512. That is also one of the reason FCC are starting to sell their core replacement parts
http://www.ptwcustom.com/index.php?m...roducts_id=508
http://www.ptwcustom.com/index.php?m...roducts_id=507
http://www.ptwcustom.com/index.php?m...roducts_id=521

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcguyver (Post 1824134)
For anyone reading this, do not under any circumstances install the FCC metal spring posts nor metal brush hood screws in your Systema motor. The risk of error and short circuit via the end bell is extreme, even the most seasoned Systema tech could do it, the average DIYer has a worse chance.

In fact, if you buy anything, buy just the armature, you do not need any other parts, and if the 2.5 brush hoods are any indicator, you will have problems.

I also recommend the 30% silver brushes from Systema, and unless FCC has seriously changed their construction (the pictures show their old carbon brushes), then there is no need for them.

:banghead:

Brad, if you want to quote what I posted please post the entire thing. just to make it clear yes you can order systema parts from their dealer but the big question should also be when can I get my parts? I have 3 TW5 including my own still waiting for parts from Systema for almost 4 months this saturday, still no news.

mcguyver August 12th, 2013 23:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by wildcard (Post 1824213)
Brad, if you want to quote what I posted please post the entire thing.

The first part from ORGA doesn't have any bearing on the second part I quoted.

wildcard August 12th, 2013 23:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcguyver (Post 1824214)
The first part from ORGA doesn't have any bearing on the second part I quoted.

The dead comes back to life
Reborn! Systema 490A x New FCC 3.0 Motor Core - YouTube

Still going strong after two games (The motor is a dead 490A motor from ORGA not the broken 7512 from the previous video)

mcguyver August 12th, 2013 23:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by wildcard (Post 1824215)
The dead comes back to life
Reborn! Systema 490A x New FCC 3.0 Motor Core - YouTube

Still going strong after two games (The motor is a dead 490A motor from ORGA not the broken 7512 from the previous video)

That's good. The armature is and really always has been the problem with the Systema motors since the introduction of the 490 and continues to this day.

However, the recent switch in wholesale by the playing to community to lipo has introduced a new issue, and all motors, regardless of manufacturer have been falling prey to it.

I would advise you to tell FCC to stop with the metal screws, they clearly haven't listened to me one bit.

wildcard August 12th, 2013 23:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcguyver (Post 1824219)
That's good. The armature is and really always has been the problem with the Systema motors since the introduction of the 490 and continues to this day.

However, the recent switch in wholesale by the playing to community to lipo has introduced a new issue, and all motors, regardless of manufacturer have been falling prey to it.

I would advise you to tell FCC to stop with the metal screws, they clearly haven't listened to me one bit.

Well recently has been more than just armature, there has been reported issues of misalligned gearboxes (where teh gears are mashing/grinding the actual shell), bodies and DOA motor from Factory QC unit from Systema its like the world turns to shits for them and these are just the local Japanese users bitching.

LiPo usage is not the big issue if Company like CTW can have mosfet that does not fry after a 14.8V battery usage I don't see why Systema is having such an issue with theirs. Even Tony has refused to do any work on the Evolution aside from his own modified version and from what I was told he was using the older gen modified motor and boards.

mcguyver August 12th, 2013 23:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by wildcard (Post 1824221)
Well recently has been more than just armature, there has been reported issues of misalligned gearboxes (where teh gears are mashing/grinding the actual shell), bodies and DOA motor from Factory QC unit from Systema its like the world turns to shits for them and these are just the local Japanese users bitching

Someone else has been having these issues as well, and lots of them.

Stones, glass houses and all that.

wildcard August 12th, 2013 23:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcguyver (Post 1824223)
Someone else has been having these issues as well, and lots of them.

Stones, glass houses and all that.

Well these are just the bitching from Japan, usually they get excellent support from them (Systema) being in their own market and all but according from the guys at ORGA no parts, almost non existant service except the odd polite japanese apology and no definite answer as to when replacement for warranty or repair is going to pop up. To me it is almost the same sign as when JAC/toytec/Smokeys went up in smoke. just sayin.

It's almost scary when a OEM company can't keep up with their competitors

mcguyver August 12th, 2013 23:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by wildcard (Post 1824221)
LiPo usage is not the big issue if Company like CTW can have mosfet that does not fry after a 14.8V battery usage I don't see why Systema is having such an issue with theirs. Even Tony has refused to do any work on the Evolution aside from his own modified version and from what I was told he was using the older gen modified motor and boards.

The issue I have been seeing does not affect the electronics, it affects the armature core, and is a result of specific properties of inductance when coupled to a constant-volatage battery like lipo and its discharge curve.

I will not go into it any further with you, it is really a waste of my time.

And Tony does work on Evolution, he is working on 6-7 for me right now, if he isn't already finished.

mcguyver August 12th, 2013 23:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by wildcard (Post 1824226)
Well these are just the bitching from Japan, usually they get excellent support from them (Systema) being in their own market and all but according from the guys at ORGA no parts, almost non existant service except the odd polite japanese apology and no definite answer as to when replacement for warranty or repair is going to pop up. To me it is almost the same sign as when JAC/toytec/Smokeys went up in smoke. just sayin

Funny, a buddy of mine just orrdered and received a shipment of uncommon parts for himself and me. It took about 2 weeks I think. But, how it is in Japan is perhaps another issue.

My warranty from FCC has not exactly been stellar. Chris has been great to keep me going, but I am still down a motor, for now.

wildcard August 12th, 2013 23:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcguyver (Post 1824228)
Funny, a buddy of mine just orrdered and received a shipment of uncommon parts for himself and me. It took about 2 weeks I think. But, how it is in Japan is perhaps another issue.

My warranty from FCC has not exactly been stellar. Chris has been great to keep me going, but I am still down a motor, for now.

All you have to do is ask, I have not seen any request for a motor for you
PM sent

mcguyver August 12th, 2013 23:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by wildcard (Post 1824232)
All you have to do is ask, I have not seen any request for a motor for you
PM sent

I snooped around with the Chris out your way, and the new motors weren't out then.

wildcard August 13th, 2013 00:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcguyver (Post 1824236)
I snooped around with the Chris out your way, and the new motors weren't out then.

3.0 motor just finished testing on the production batch but we do have 3.0 cores on 2.5 frame for warranty purpose if you have your old motor please contact Chris or me at sales@tw-works.com and no snooping is required all you need to do is ask, if its a defective product as long as it remains unmodified it will be covered unless stated.

Azathoth August 13th, 2013 10:38

I don't understand what the deal with parts from Japan is. I have had zero issue in getting parts direct from the factory (and I am not a wholesaler, dealer, retailer, distributor or have any relationship with systema).

I've put in three part orders in the past 5 months, and had delivery within 2-3 weeks. I don't understand what the hoopla is with getting support from the factory that people are talking about.

I have a gripe with the 2.5 motor. It gets very hot under 9.6v NiCD and struggles to pull a stock systema blue cylinder when the battery is at 75% of charge. Same battery at 75% charge in a stock 490 cycles the gun cleaner and it doesn't heat up the motor. At about 50% charge 9.6NiCD the FCC 2.5 cannot cycle the M110 at all, however a 490 can continue to cycle the gun for another 200-300 rounds.

Observed with two different 08 factory guns now, with factory electronics with three different FCC 2.5 motors.

This tells me wither the 2.5 pinion gear is not meshing properly with the bevel gear ; or something is terribly wrong with the motor.

ThunderCactus August 13th, 2013 11:28

I have not had any specific issues with my FCC 2.5 motor as of yet, but I'll be monitoring it closely next year.
But as Brad said, for the love of god change those brush hood screws to plastic!!!
And you don't have to go purely on Brad's word for that one. Systema and some others have tried using metal screws on AEG motor before, and those are the motors that give us the most problems.

Also, I don't like the new motors construction, I don't trust that in the slightest. All screws holding a motor together need to be mounted axially. It's been that way for decades, and there's a good damn reason for it. I understand and respect that FCC is trying to re-invent the wheel here, but some things are just terrible ideas and that right there is one of them.
Are the threads on the housing roll formed or cut?
I guarantee those threads aren't tight tolerance and those are just regular socket head screws. There's natural slack in all threads to begin with, and if by some chance someone under torques or goes over yield strength on a screw, that motors gonna come loose and burn out your bearings really fast, and it doesn't take much misalignment to kill a bearing at 25000rpm

wildcard August 13th, 2013 16:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azathoth (Post 1824322)
I don't understand what the deal with parts from Japan is. I have had zero issue in getting parts direct from the factory (and I am not a wholesaler, dealer, retailer, distributor or have any relationship with systema).

I've put in three part orders in the past 5 months, and had delivery within 2-3 weeks. I don't understand what the hoopla is with getting support from the factory that people are talking about.

I have a gripe with the 2.5 motor. It gets very hot under 9.6v NiCD and struggles to pull a stock systema blue cylinder when the battery is at 75% of charge. Same battery at 75% charge in a stock 490 cycles the gun cleaner and it doesn't heat up the motor. At about 50% charge 9.6NiCD the FCC 2.5 cannot cycle the M110 at all, however a 490 can continue to cycle the gun for another 200-300 rounds.

Observed with two different 08 factory guns now, with factory electronics with three different FCC 2.5 motors.

This tells me wither the 2.5 pinion gear is not meshing properly with the bevel gear ; or something is terribly wrong with the motor.

Lol you must one of teh few purist left that still use nicads for PTW all the heat issue and other problem is os one of teh reason that they develop the 3.0 motor, they have tested it with different powered LiPo from 7.4 to 16V with no issue or heat up so far there has been 8 different prototype from design to actual production batch, the videos of the bench test was done with the production batch

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThunderCactus (Post 1824336)
I have not had any specific issues with my FCC 2.5 motor as of yet, but I'll be monitoring it closely next year.
But as Brad said, for the love of god change those brush hood screws to plastic!!!
And you don't have to go purely on Brad's word for that one. Systema and some others have tried using metal screws on AEG motor before, and those are the motors that give us the most problems.

Also, I don't like the new motors construction, I don't trust that in the slightest. All screws holding a motor together need to be mounted axially. It's been that way for decades, and there's a good damn reason for it. I understand and respect that FCC is trying to re-invent the wheel here, but some things are just terrible ideas and that right there is one of them.
Are the threads on the housing roll formed or cut?
I guarantee those threads aren't tight tolerance and those are just regular socket head screws. There's natural slack in all threads to begin with, and if by some chance someone under torques or goes over yield strength on a screw, that motors gonna come loose and burn out your bearings really fast, and it doesn't take much misalignment to kill a bearing at 25000rpm

these motors was tested at 34000 RPM (see the video) with no issue, the plastic screw was originally used in one of the prototype but it failed that is why they went back to metal and so far out of the eight prototype there has been 0 failure with the exception of the one that uses plastic screws, all along the eight prototype they also tested different cores to rectify the heat issue, I have one of the prototype motor in my gun. Now the core in my is not the finished production core but it ran at 32000rpm with no heat buildup compared to the 2.5 the difference is almost night and day.

The 3.0 motor is not the be all and end all of motors there a few more in development but so far these are the motors that gives the best stability for mass market production, if future there will be more coming out of FCC in terms of new product and stronger presence in for the TW segment.

Azathoth August 13th, 2013 16:38

Apologies if this is off-topic

Like I said I'm not affiliated with Systema at all, I just go through the same channels that everyone else like Tackleberry does to get parts (and soon complete guns).

I'm not a NiCD purist. Finding a quality LIPO is a issue. Brad alluded to it earlier.

I've found that the NiCDs are good enough for the PTW system and although I actually prefer running LiPO I don't like running batteries outside of the gun. I have had several firefox and other branded buffer batteries fail in AEG and PTW alike. I have yet to find a buffer LiPO aside from the pair of systema ones that I have last more than a season or for that matter more than two dozen charges.


On Topic(ish):
My issue with FCC is not with the product but the marketing. IE MILSPEC items that are not clearly not milspec (buffer tube, magwell geometry) marketed/sold as such. It's not like FCC didn't know the difference either, based on what you have posted in other threads they intentionally misled the market.

I really would like to have a 3.0 FCC motor to use/abuse and see if it really is as rugged/reliable as it is being marketed. But I have never had a catastrophic motor failure that a lot of the people are talking about.

wildcard August 13th, 2013 16:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azathoth (Post 1824454)
I'm not a NiCD purist. Finding a quality LIPO is a issue. Brad alluded to it earlier.

I've found that the NiCDs are good enough for the PTW system and although I actually prefer running LiPO I don't like running batteries outside of the gun. I have had several firefox and other branded buffer batteries fail in AEG and PTW alike. I have yet to find a buffer LiPO aside from the pair of systema ones that I have last more than a season or for that matter more than two dozen charges.

try the ones from NANOTECH and GEN ACE so far they are the best ones I've used, I went through almost 8 different brands before i settled on these two the C rating is consistent enough that I ran my gun till the battery is drained (stupid but I need to know the limits) it ran no issue and no swelling like the others teh Firefox is the worst, the Systema 14.8 is ok but I still prefer the NANOTECH and GEN ACE. During my stay in HK we tested the new prototype core/motor with Systema 14.8 and some 16V LiPo that they use to run RC, so I know that these cores will definitely ran and the motor held up under stress (we gamed them too using M150spring)

One of the conditions of partnership I have with FCC is that I get to break their product and so far with the exception of Pinion gears, 2 motors (using a 45C LiPo) I have not much luck, I even ran one motor with a 16V at full auto until the solder melt, re solder and re shoot with no issue.

ThunderCactus August 13th, 2013 17:04

Motor failures are generally due to heat cycling, and it seems to me heat cycling is worse on LiPo batteries. I'm guessing because of the higher voltages there's just more wattage going to the motor creating more heat.
AFAIK the NiCd's supply comparable amperage to the LiPos and that's why systema always used them

And I understand the FCC motor is not the end all be all motor, but we want it to be! and that's why we're so critical of it lol
How much work is it really to redesign the head properly? At the very least I'd like to see the original 4 axially mounted screws at the head of the motor where the most force is going to be applied.

I could write an essay on why side mounted screws are a REALLY bad idea, but you just need to look at any industrial motor out there

wildcard August 13th, 2013 17:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azathoth (Post 1824454)
Apologies if this is off-topic

Like I said I'm not affiliated with Systema at all, I just go through the same channels that everyone else like Tackleberry does to get parts (and soon complete guns).

I'm not a NiCD purist. Finding a quality LIPO is a issue. Brad alluded to it earlier.

I've found that the NiCDs are good enough for the PTW system and although I actually prefer running LiPO I don't like running batteries outside of the gun. I have had several firefox and other branded buffer batteries fail in AEG and PTW alike. I have yet to find a buffer LiPO aside from the pair of systema ones that I have last more than a season or for that matter more than two dozen charges.


On Topic(ish):
My issue with FCC is not with the product but the marketing. IE MILSPEC items that are not clearly not milspec (buffer tube, magwell geometry) marketed/sold as such. It's not like FCC didn't know the difference either, based on what you have posted in other threads they intentionally misled the market.

I really would like to have a 3.0 FCC motor to use/abuse and see if it really is as rugged/reliable as it is being marketed. But I have never had a catastrophic motor failure that a lot of the people are talking about.

Well there is some issue in Japan, ORGA is probably one of the best shop when it comes to PTW they are like the tackleberry of JPN they have been getting issues with QC rifle and no parts so much so that they went to Tony for motors and FCC for motors parts and other essential items, whether some retailers or distributors are hoarding them or not it's not right an dit sends teh wrong message when one of your retailer in your own country could not get parts. As for FCC milspec well buffer tube is measured off a real buffer BCM and VLTOR ( I got them teh VLTOR) mags I just send them a new M3 magpul mags in regards to fitting RS stuff myself and a lot of others have no issue on it, all 5 of my FCC rifle have RS VLTOR/MAGPUL/stocks and my XM actually have authentic XM177 foregrips, stock and front triangle sights.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThunderCactus (Post 1824472)
Motor failures are generally due to heat cycling, and it seems to me heat cycling is worse on LiPo batteries. I'm guessing because of the higher voltages there's just more wattage going to the motor creating more heat.
AFAIK the NiCd's supply comparable amperage to the LiPos and that's why systema always used them

And I understand the FCC motor is not the end all be all motor, but we want it to be! and that's why we're so critical of it lol
How much work is it really to redesign the head properly? At the very least I'd like to see the original 4 axially mounted screws at the head of the motor where the most force is going to be applied.

I could write an essay on why side mounted screws are a REALLY bad idea, but you just need to look at any industrial motor out there

At first I thought the same way How hard can it be to change the specs?, well after seeing it firsthand and the amount of money and work involved I understand fully why some manufacturer especially small ones like FCC cannot react immediately to failed designs. chnaging designs cost money and when you already invested on the design there is a certain margin they need to make before going to the next unfortunately following other design is not an option for several obvious reason. FCC don't just test their stuff on bench, 98% of their staff except the two girls in the office play everyweek this is how 80% of the design is tested, are they mechanical genius or engineer? NO All of them are tinkerers, well some of them have engineering degree but they are all players including the three owners so they do understand the frustration of running a TW platform and they do attemp to make things better but within their financial and technological ability. Are they perfect? well no but they are trying.

They do encourage their distributor/retailer and user to give them feedback, all constructive comments here I forward it to the boys and some of those have made it down to the 3.0 some have not for again several reasons and beta testing that result in failure in other parts.

wildcard August 13th, 2013 18:18

AZATHOTH

This is one of the batteries I used

http://www.airsoftcanada.com/showthr...09#post1824309

mcguyver August 13th, 2013 18:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThunderCactus (Post 1824472)
Motor failures are generally due to heat cycling, and it seems to me heat cycling is worse on LiPo batteries. I'm guessing because of the higher voltages there's just more wattage going to the motor creating more heat.
AFAIK the NiCd's supply comparable amperage to the LiPos and that's why systema always used them

The issue is really what happens to the motor when the battery becomes depleted. I am lazy, so I will ask you to Google "discharge curve for" whichever battery chemistry you want to compare. In lipo, the discharge is rather linear up until it is depleted, then it drops like a rock. In nicad, its curve is very shallow in comparison.

When users notice a slowdown in motor soeed when shooting, it is a cue that it is time to change the battery. With nicad, it recovers a bit and you can get a few more shots out, and a dead battery always happens at the worst time, doesn't it? With lipo, when you hear a slowdown, it may already be too late.

Without getting heavy into the science/engineering aspect of motors and all the math, think of a motor like any other inductor or transformer. Because it is. So now you can apply all the laws and formulas regarding inductance, as well as a helping of motor theory. When the voltage drops to an inductor, inductance drops, the magnetic field strength the armature is capable of is reduced, and the motor slows down. Nicads will deliver current but at reduced voltage. Inductors by their nature resist changes in current (like capacitors resist changes in voltage) and they will transform their charge current (when they are getting current from the battery) into discharge current (when they geting no or reduced current from the battery). And, being inductors, this discharge current is a function of time, the shorter the time, the higher the current. This is why we as electricians must make provisions for and be aware of inductive spikes when you open inductive loads like motors, and it is the reason there are motor ratings on switches, breakers, contactors, etc.

Now, with lipo, they are a constant voltage battery, their current delivery does not follow a linear curve in relationship to voltage like nicad does. The battery may still be reading 11 volts and not be able to generate much current. This means the inductance of the armature stays constant, and it is dumping current as much as retaining it. In a motor that spins at 30,000 rpm, with 2 pole reversals per turn, this means that the armature is charging and discharging 60,000 times per minute. It is a veritable inductive jackhammer, and the windings are paying the price.

Perhaps lipo alarms would prevent some of it, quality batteries might help, but I think it is something that users will just have to live with.

Quote:

And I understand the FCC motor is not the end all be all motor, but we want it to be! and that's why we're so critical of it lol
How much work is it really to redesign the head properly? At the very least I'd like to see the original 4 axially mounted screws at the head of the motor where the most force is going to be applied.
There is lots of design changes that could be made. Windings could be thicker, but that means more turns, more armature mass, and the weight penalty would mean slower RPM. The brushes can be improved. The trueness of the comm could be better. Spring strength could be better. Height adjustment to accomodate the variety of aftermarket lowers and gearboxes would be nice. The better attention paid to smooth layering of windings, a soldered comm joint, solid lashing and dipping to prevent winding resonance are good places to go.

Perpendicular screws are not a good idea mechanically, but there is alot of more critical areas to address to performance and longevity.


Quote:

I could write an essay on why side mounted screws are a REALLY bad idea, but you just need to look at any industrial motor out there
Yep. Good luck finding a motor out there done like that. PTW motors are by far the cheapest motors I deal with.

Azathoth August 13th, 2013 18:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by wildcard (Post 1824497)
AZATHOTH

This is one of the batteries I used

http://www.airsoftcanada.com/showthr...09#post1824309

Thanks I have a link to RCmart/hobbyking for the battery saved, I just don't have the need for them atm as i am still trailing VENOM & Zippy RC batteries.

As for the 16v in a PTW. I am not impressed. Their are AEG tuners out their running 22.2v LiPO 65C 4400mah in their guns. People have been running 12 and 16v NiXX batteries long before that on the AEG platform.

Brushless motor will impress me. A LWRCI M6A3 Full ambi selector, mag release, bolt release, capable of shooting >800+fps. Or better yet, a AK-74, Type 95 TW.

wildcard August 13th, 2013 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcguyver (Post 1824504)
There is lots of design changes that could be made. Windings could be thicker, but that means more turns, more armature mass, and the weight penalty would mean slower RPM. The brushes can be improved. The trueness of the comm could be better. Spring strength could be better. Height adjustment to accomodate the variety of aftermarket lowers and gearboxes would be nice. The better attention paid to smooth layering of windings, a soldered comm joint, solid lashing and dipping to prevent winding resonance are good places to go.


Yep. Good luck finding a motor out there done like that. PTW motors are by far the cheapest motors I deal with.

You also forgot the part Brad on how much the market are willing to pony up, I was told that a "perfect" motor would cost in excess of $500, now I don't know if most players that run a PTW will even consider touching that. $500+ for a motor that are well build and bullet proof sounds like a death to any company in terms of making their profit, as good as it sounds it's just not a smart business decisions plus I wouldn't even want to know the R&D cost in time and design labor to that motor.

mcguyver August 13th, 2013 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by wildcard (Post 1824511)
You also forgot the part Brad on how much the market are willing to pony up, I was told that a "perfect" motor would cost in excess of $500, now I don't know if most players that run a PTW will even consider touching that. $500+ for a motor that are well build and bullet proof sounds like a death to any company in terms of making their profit, as good as it sounds it's just not a smart business decisions plus I wouldn't even want to know the R&D cost in time and design labor to that motor.

If a stock motor now costs $250 as a part, a $500 motor is definately a marketable item. I have some motors now that have $450 invested in them between initial cost + rewind.

Guys who run Nascar or F1 burn up $100,000 motors like it is a cost of doing business. Same for PTW, if you play with the big toys, you pay like the big boys.


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